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UK votes to leave EU

bbc.co.uk

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Re: UK votes to leave EU

#361
post #9

I have never felt less British than I do right now. :(

Can I ask why? The public spoke in completely free and democratic manner, against everything so called "experts" said. I thought this was a staple of being British?

Not the OP, but as someone born in Britain, raised in Switzerland and now living in the US, I concur.

At least in my case think of it as my identity being some mix of Europe-in-general, Britain-somewhat, Switzerland-somewhat. Now Britain says "we're not Europe" (to horribly over-simplify). That doesn't make me think "oh well, now I'm less European", instead it makes me thing "oh well, now I'm less British".

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#362
post #12

Can someone please give an unbiased summary of what this means and how it will impact the UK, Europe, and the rest of the world?

What does it mean? The Powers That Be have prognosticated every manner of doom should Brexit succeed. Despite that fear mongering, the threats and demands of all major political parties, many corporations and foreign leaders, the brave people of the UK have asserted their sovereignty. Over 72% of the entire electorate voted and produced a clear majority. That is monumental. What happens next? Next is the shaming; the…

Unfortunately =/

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#364
post #140

Is Scotland going to be exiting the UK next? Guess we'll see in a few years. Hard to know what will happen here, but I suspect once the UK (or what's left of it) signs a trade deal with the EU, they'll get the same deal as Norway - all the compliance with EU regulations, with none of the say. I suppose people may be happy with that deal, as long as they can get to say they're "free". I'm hoping this somehow leave the…

I predict the UK flag will change in 10 years or less. Scotland will hold a referendum to leave the UK for the EU.

If I were EU - i would have agreement pre approved and ready to be signed - in the next 2 weeks.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#365

anyone else concerned? The entire world seems to be moving towards fascist right wing nationalist politics. Whether it is the brexit, trumpism, or the austrian elections. Europe keeps getting destabilized. If i was an enemy of europe and freedom, id be cheering. Instead i'm deeply concerned.

The current liberal order isn't helping the world out so much. Another incredibly hyperbolic, right wing bad / left wing corrupt elites plan good.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#366
post #165
post #95

It's amazing that such deep constitutional change will be achieved with such a slim majority. 48% of British people will be ejected out of the EU essentially against their will. The UK has always embraced first past the post voting, but it really shows here how it creates very discontinuous inflection points.

What about those that were joined against their will? Politics is violence: 51% vs 49%

If you get consistent splits of that nature, you should really look into breaking into two countries.

This point in particular resounded with me:

> The referendum has underlined the social and cultural gap between London and provincial England.

This applies pretty much everywhere. You have the temperate / urban / high-immigrant liberal places, and the more desolate / isolated / sparsely populated / resource rich conservative places, and for some bizarre reason we still keept forcing them to operate under one government.

I have long advocated that in the era of NATO, the UN, and nuclear arms that massive states on the scale of the US or what the EU was designed to be (effectively, over the long term, another US) is counter to all notions of democracy. You only need an independent state so long as it can assert its own borders and have enough economic significance to have bargaining power in international negotiations.

The Northeast Corridor in the US, the West Coast from SF to SD, the Rust belt, and the Carolina's are examples of fairly homogeneous societies, that would make a lot of sense being their own countries, and are all fairly distinct, but would all have significant enough size and GDP to still function easily as first world countries.

Texas is an example of the opposite problem. It has 4 liberal cities surrounded by cowboys. You would almost just want to make 3 cities (Austin / San Antonio are close enough to form one) that are independent states that behave like Luxembourg by being landlocked around the Midwestern Confederacy of Rednecks that spans from the Carolina's to the Rockies.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#367
post #152
post #121

Yet another example that immigration policy trumps pretty well all other concerns. This has played out several times in Australia. 5% of the population suddenly voted for a nationalist candidate Pauline Hanson who came from nowhere, had no policies, no credibility and no clue just because she was against immigration. Major political parties took note that day, and since then they have in various roundabout ways adopt…

Was immigration policy the only factor driving people's votes? Do you believe that over 50% of the UK population harbors ill will towards immigrant populations? What about the democratic arguments against the European Commission or the arguments against protectionist trade barriers? To distill the entire vote into a single issue is foolish. I think it's easy to say that immigration and underlying racism or xenophobia…

> Was immigration policy the only factor driving people's votes? Do you believe that over 50% of the UK population harbors ill will towards immigrant populations?

As a Brit living in the EU, yes this is exactly what the vote is about. The common Brit believes immigrants from Poland, Bulgaria, Romania, etc came to steal their jobs and benefits and are the cause of all their problems. They believe by voting out it'll magically fix everything. Take a look at the media like the Daily Mail and The Sun over the last few weeks and see what they had to say about this topic.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#368

I have a particularly strong attachment to Scotland, and as most Scottish people have, I would have voted to remain in the EU, however messy it is, though I suppose my opinion on the matter has little relevance since I can't vote. More interestingly, I find this is a telling example of the limitations of democracy as we know it. Democracy, very broadly speaking, ignores population clusters (physical or ideological) t…

All these limitations are(or were?) very well known facts. Modern republics(representative democracies), the existence of senates, all try to address this. Ancient Athenians had gone much further with the establishment of Sortition(random election of representatives).

We call random people to vote for issues out of their expertise and we enforce the rule of the majority to everyone.(what happens to the 48% who voted remain?). This is obviously ridiculous but everyone is brainwashed as we learn at school that democracy is like the biggest invention of mankind. Athenians at least were allowed to ridicule it all the time.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#370
post #336
post #271

So, devil's advocate here: Can someone explain to me why this is a bad thing? I feel like most educated people seem to think this is terrible (and the markets seem to agree), but to me, the European union seems like an anti-democratic institution that doesn't really provide much value. I mean, don't me wrong, removing trade barriers is probably good. But won't the UK just be able to pretty quickly renegotiate basical…

Being an EU member means free movement of capital, goods, and people. Trade deals cover "capital" and "goods", but usually not "people". So concretely speaking, labor costs will rise in the UK (due to a reduction of cheap workers immigrating from other EU countries to the UK) and the country will start experiencing a deficit of highly skilled workers¹ (due to educated workers not able to immigrate). ¹ Of all places,…

But they can simply reestablish deals regarding people as well. Plenty of countries have deals regarding movement of people.

And Switzerland even has a deal with the EU that allows the exact same movement of people as if they were a member.

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