“But he does good work.” • Hacker News Board

Re: “But he does good work.”

#281

Post by js8 » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 2:44 PM UTC

dpark wrote: post #280

js8 wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ask them to accomplish something, leaders will emerge, because the alternative is disorganized, undirected, and wasted energy There are studies that indicate that the "natural leaders" will be predominantly men, because of intervention from both sexes (both sexes see by default dominant women as worse than dominant men). And I don't think alternative is necessarily wasted energy, for example democracy is a pretty g…

Democracy is specifically a method for placing people into positions of power.

No, that's too simplistic definition. You're talking about representative democracy, but that's just one of the about 4 possible options how to implement democracy, which is at the core about everybody having same power in decision-making.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#282

Post by tripzilch » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 5:56 PM UTC

mafribe wrote: post #247

smoyer wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've admitted I'm old ... I grew up with my father teaching me I should "protect the weaker sex". Note that "Weaker sex" is NOT the same thing as "inferior sex" and my father, to this day, treats my mother as his partner. Of course, I was also conditioned (thanks Disney) to want to be the knight in shining armor who comes to the aid of the damsel in distress. So while I intellectually know it applies to everyone, I f…

Thank you for your thoughful response, in particular reflection on the strong tendency to encourage men to "whiteknight". There is an interesting convergence between feminists and conservatives, in that both seek to demonise and curtail male sexuality as much as possible. They do it for different reasons though. Social conservatives believe sexuality should be channeled into nuclear families because stable monogamous…

Interesting ideas but I have some big doubts about the last statement.

> In the long run social conservatives will win though, because they have way more children than feminists (male and female). Feminist attitudes will simply die out.

You know the film Idiocracy? It's a hilariously satirical scifi story based on the premise of "intelligent people reproduce way less than stupid people, therefore intelligence will die out".

Which is a very funny idea, but it's just not how selection works.

Your example is doubtful for slightly different reasons. Historically, the selection pressure on pieces of information (Feminist attitudes) has always been strongly tied to the reproductive ability of the medium it is embedded in (people). However, that is changing, information is getting loose, first as artifacts, writing, but today it even has forms of agency (computing). The world population will stagnate, which also factors into it. Spreading your genes used to be, but really is no longer a guarantee to also spread your ideas.

Or maybe look at it the other way, if things work the way you describe, where did Feminism come from in the first place? How could it ever gain mainstream traction in an environment filled with reproducing conservatives? It's a bit absurd. Also, if the process you describe only affects "the long run", what's stopping Feminism from popping up over and over again in the short term?

Re: “But he does good work.”

#283

Post by tripzilch » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 6:02 PM UTC

mafribe wrote: post #278

pm90 wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the last part is true though. A critical part of US society is the freedom of information, which allows the kids of conservative parents to learn about other viewpoints. Anecdotally, I have many friends who were raised in rather conservative households who are now very liberal... of course, its also true that kids in conservative households do mostly turn out to be conservative, because parents. However…

You are right of course, I was drastically simplifying my points for the sake of the discussion. It is quite normal to stage a partial rebellion against one's upbringing, it's part of the normal process of maturing into an adult. However, that tends to fizzle out when one's own children arrive. To be sure, there will always be those who do not follow the parental path. My contention is that they will remain a minorit…

What future do you imagine where lack of offspring will be extremely apparent?

If the world population growth doesn't stop one way, it will stop the hard way. You can only fit so many humans on this planet.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#284

Post by mafribe » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 6:28 PM UTC

tripzilch wrote: post #282

mafribe wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for your thoughful response, in particular reflection on the strong tendency to encourage men to "whiteknight". There is an interesting convergence between feminists and conservatives, in that both seek to demonise and curtail male sexuality as much as possible. They do it for different reasons though. Social conservatives believe sexuality should be channeled into nuclear families because stable monogamous…

Interesting ideas but I have some big doubts about the last statement. > In the long run social conservatives will win though, because they have way more children than feminists (male and female). Feminist attitudes will simply die out. You know the film Idiocracy ? It's a hilariously satirical scifi story based on the premise of "intelligent people reproduce way less than stupid people, therefore intelligence will d…

I know Idiocracy, and I like Mike Judge, but I don't really believe that (much of) intelligence is heritable, at least in the way the film suggests.

I base my prediction that feminist will die out not so much on abstract theories of information transfer and evolution, but on what I observe in the world.

   where did Feminism come from

This is an interesting question, and I could comment at length on this subject, but maybe HN is not the right venue for this subject matter, especially as what I'd say goes against the ruling SJW orthodoxy.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#285

Post by mafribe » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 6:30 PM UTC

tripzilch wrote: post #283

mafribe wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right of course, I was drastically simplifying my points for the sake of the discussion. It is quite normal to stage a partial rebellion against one's upbringing, it's part of the normal process of maturing into an adult. However, that tends to fizzle out when one's own children arrive. To be sure, there will always be those who do not follow the parental path. My contention is that they will remain a minorit…

What future do you imagine where lack of offspring will be extremely apparent? If the world population growth doesn't stop one way, it will stop the hard way. You can only fit so many humans on this planet.

Lack of offspring is already extremely apparent among highly educated women. My university is full of them. Most have no children or at best one.

Feminism is sometimes seen as an evolved reaction to overpopulation.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#286

Post by mhewett » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 9:25 PM UTC

Some possibly useful advice: if I'm at a conference and someone I sort of know says, "This one speaker is being an ass. He's pestering me about another speaker." I'm like, "yeah, yeah that's part of being an organizer".

But if that person says, "Can you help me? Bill Smith is harassing me." Now they've got my attention.

In this case I don't know what the exact dialog was, but if you want help be sure to ask for it and state clearly why. People will respond more proactively.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#287

Post by jessaustin » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 11:38 AM UTC

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #237

jessaustin wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many jurisdictions, that space does exist, because cops and prosecutors are comfortable "looking the other way" when it's clear there is a reason to do so. It is to Texas's credit that much of that state is such a jurisdiction, but in fact much of the fly-over country is. Of course, a fake-ass "anarchist" like Applebaum might file a civil suit for a well-deserved ass-kicking, but that's still sunlight.

Among all the problems with this kind of folk justice is it tends to "criminalize" things like "breathing while black" or "looks gay".

What you're talking about is (and especially, has been) a real problem, but that's because of institutionalized racism and prejudice, not because LEOs look the other way when an asshole deservedly gets his nose busted. Not least because many of the jurisdictions that have institutionalized racism of this sort would be quick to jump in if a "stereotypical" white-dude asshole was on the receiving end.

However, perhaps something about this works better when all parties are in the same "community", in a sense. The situation under discussion seems to fit that mold.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#288

Post by fletom » Fri, Jul 01, 2016, 12:07 PM UTC

camperman wrote: post #256

jessaustin wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The courts can lock you up or kill you, so it's appropriate if they have somewhat stringent standards for guilt. Private organizations can only show you the door, and the standards for that are quite a bit less exacting. The media episodes you mention are not relevant to the internal operation of private organizations.

Hang on, we're not just talking about violations of internal company policies that led to a dismissal here. We're talking about crimes. I quote: "sexual harassment, rape, stalking, personal threats, and more." Appelbaum is entitled to defend himself and face his accusers in court if they believe they have something against him. As to his guilt, I don't know. Half of me thinks he could well be a slimeball that's guilt…

> there's 'women in tech' organisations that have been accused of framing technology leaders for sexual assault just to marginalize them

Just what kind of absurd anti-feminist conspiracy theories have you been reading? Are you honestly suggesting that this many of Applebaums colleagues are evil conspirators hell-bent on destroying an innocent man's life? I think you could do with some Occam's Razor and a moment to think about your attitude towards sexual assault and power.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#289

Post by camperman » Tue, Jul 05, 2016, 12:09 AM UTC

fletom wrote: post #288

camperman wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hang on, we're not just talking about violations of internal company policies that led to a dismissal here. We're talking about crimes. I quote: "sexual harassment, rape, stalking, personal threats, and more." Appelbaum is entitled to defend himself and face his accusers in court if they believe they have something against him. As to his guilt, I don't know. Half of me thinks he could well be a slimeball that's guilt…

> there's 'women in tech' organisations that have been accused of framing technology leaders for sexual assault just to marginalize them Just what kind of absurd anti-feminist conspiracy theories have you been reading? Are you honestly suggesting that this many of Applebaums colleagues are evil conspirators hell-bent on destroying an innocent man's life? I think you could do with some Occam's Razor and a moment to th…

> Just what kind of absurd anti-feminist conspiracy theories have you been reading?

Eric Raymond's post on the subject here - http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6907 - clearly accuses the Ada Initiative of framing technology leaders for sexual assault. I chose to Listen and Believe him. What's the problem?

> Are you honestly suggesting that this many of Applebaums colleagues are evil conspirators hell-bent on destroying an innocent man's life?

No, I think there something to these allegations. But the problem is the environment has been salted and soured so much recently that when a high profile person accuses someone of a sexual assault that took place years ago, my automatic reaction is that they're lying. That's why I want to see due process including cross-examination and lengthy jail terms if he's guilty.

> I think you could do with some Occam's Razor

Ok, how about this then? Three separate women accuse a media personality of sexual assault. He is tried. On the stand it turns out each one of the women was lying - he had proof that it was consensual. I was 100% convinced before the trial he would be convicted. I mean come on: three separate witnesses? Each with a similar story? Occam's Razor right? Nope.

> a moment to think about your attitude towards sexual assault and power.

I think it's extremely healthy: someone accused of any crime is presumed innocent until proven guilty as part of a due process.