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“But he does good work.”

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Re: “But he does good work.”

#271

Post by dpark »

js8 wrote: post #263
dpark wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that continuing to include serial abusers is in any way rehabilitating. It's just enabling. I'd be interested in hearing how allowing someone with a consistent pattern of sexual harassment continue to participate in the community will result in anything other than more of the same. To be clear, shunning this guy from the community isn't likely to result in him being a homeless criminal. He has marketabl…

> He has marketable skills and clearly people have in the past ignored his behavior because it was beneficial to business. He can undoubtedly find a job. But isn't this what the OP argues against? That nobody should consider him having good skills because he is a harasser? And regarding him having "position of power". I actually wish no one had a position of power, ever. I would even argue that the whole concept exis…

Sure. I'd agree that the OP is arguing that basically no one should employ this guy. I don't quite agree with that, but I also don't think that it's a real concern because someone will employ this guy whether it's a good idea or not.

Regarding power, I don't agree with your assessment. Positions of power exist to provide social structure. Yes, positions of power are relevant to mating, but humans would have power structures even if we started reproducing asexually. If you put a dozen people in a room and ask them to accomplish something, leaders will emerge, because the alternative is disorganized, undirected, and wasted energy.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#272

Post by camperman »

jessaustin wrote: post #269
camperman wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hang on, we're not just talking about violations of internal company policies that led to a dismissal here. We're talking about crimes. I quote: "sexual harassment, rape, stalking, personal threats, and more." Appelbaum is entitled to defend himself and face his accusers in court if they believe they have something against him. As to his guilt, I don't know. Half of me thinks he could well be a slimeball that's guilt…

In some sense, it doesn't matter what the subject is accused of. The standard for dismissal as an unpaid official of a private nonprofit organization is lower than that for prison. Subject could always set up his own networked privacy tool? OK, maybe that's a stretch... b^)

>In some sense, it doesn't matter what the subject is accused of.

Yeah, right.

1. This is Jacob Appelbaum: he consistently went over the head of procurement when ordering new paper for the printer. He's been fired.

2. This is Jacob Appelbaum: he's a sleazy pickup artist who's raped at least one person, threatened others and made female employees' lives a living hell. He's been fired.

One of these things is not like the other.

> The standard for dismissal as an unpaid official of a private nonprofit organization is lower than that for prison.

Well, quite. But as soon as you accuse someone of a criminal offense, then they're entitled to use the legal system to defend themselves. Violet's point is that the community needs to stop this from happening again which I have to agree with - if the accused is indeed guilty. But she cannot just charge ahead and demand sweeping reforms before determining whether he is or not.

> Subject could always set up his own networked privacy tool? OK, maybe that's a stretch... b^)

No - Subject needs to answer these very serious charges in front of a judge so that he can either a) clear his name or b) be locked up to protect others from his predatory behavior.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#273

Post by jessaustin »

srtjstjsj wrote: post #161

> I turned to Jake and said, “I think you have me confused with a certain blonde blogger,” Who is that referring to? Is the audience supposed to know, or was that in inside reference

It might not have referred to anyone. She was trying to derail his bullshit, not have an engaging conversation.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#274

Post by jessaustin »

kemayo wrote: post #200
moon_of_moon wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why decode it? Take it at face value: "I want to be clear: the accusations of criminal sexual misconduct against me are entirely false." "I’ve dedicated my life as a journalist, activist, and longtime member of the Tor Project to advocating for the transparency of public processes and to speaking out about the necessity of privacy, security, and anonymity. These are ideals that I will continue to uphold, despite the…

I think the point the "decoder" is making is that his denial is very carefully worded, and even taking him completely at face value, "I didn't do anything bad enough that I should be arrested for it" is a long way from "I didn't do anything wrong, and shouldn't be removed from this community".

It reminds one of that episode of Dresden Codak in which Kim reacts to slanderous online articles:

KR: I'm not a criminal; I've never even been convicted of a felony in this state!

BB: That's an oddly specific phrasing.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#275

Post by pm90 »

mafribe wrote: post #247
smoyer wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've admitted I'm old ... I grew up with my father teaching me I should "protect the weaker sex". Note that "Weaker sex" is NOT the same thing as "inferior sex" and my father, to this day, treats my mother as his partner. Of course, I was also conditioned (thanks Disney) to want to be the knight in shining armor who comes to the aid of the damsel in distress. So while I intellectually know it applies to everyone, I f…

Thank you for your thoughful response, in particular reflection on the strong tendency to encourage men to "whiteknight". There is an interesting convergence between feminists and conservatives, in that both seek to demonise and curtail male sexuality as much as possible. They do it for different reasons though. Social conservatives believe sexuality should be channeled into nuclear families because stable monogamous…

I don't think the last part is true though. A critical part of US society is the freedom of information, which allows the kids of conservative parents to learn about other viewpoints. Anecdotally, I have many friends who were raised in rather conservative households who are now very liberal... of course, its also true that kids in conservative households do mostly turn out to be conservative, because parents.

However, it is this small group that will always keep the flame of liberalism alive.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#277

Post by js8 »

dpark wrote: post #271
js8 wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He has marketable skills and clearly people have in the past ignored his behavior because it was beneficial to business. He can undoubtedly find a job. But isn't this what the OP argues against? That nobody should consider him having good skills because he is a harasser? And regarding him having "position of power". I actually wish no one had a position of power, ever. I would even argue that the whole concept exis…

Sure. I'd agree that the OP is arguing that basically no one should employ this guy. I don't quite agree with that, but I also don't think that it's a real concern because someone will employ this guy whether it's a good idea or not. Regarding power, I don't agree with your assessment. Positions of power exist to provide social structure. Yes, positions of power are relevant to mating, but humans would have power str…

> ask them to accomplish something, leaders will emerge, because the alternative is disorganized, undirected, and wasted energy

There are studies that indicate that the "natural leaders" will be predominantly men, because of intervention from both sexes (both sexes see by default dominant women as worse than dominant men). And I don't think alternative is necessarily wasted energy, for example democracy is a pretty good alternative. It's hard to say what would happen if we were asexual, but maybe we would all readily agree on having democracy.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#278

Post by mafribe »

pm90 wrote: post #275
mafribe wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for your thoughful response, in particular reflection on the strong tendency to encourage men to "whiteknight". There is an interesting convergence between feminists and conservatives, in that both seek to demonise and curtail male sexuality as much as possible. They do it for different reasons though. Social conservatives believe sexuality should be channeled into nuclear families because stable monogamous…

I don't think the last part is true though. A critical part of US society is the freedom of information, which allows the kids of conservative parents to learn about other viewpoints. Anecdotally, I have many friends who were raised in rather conservative households who are now very liberal... of course, its also true that kids in conservative households do mostly turn out to be conservative, because parents. However…

You are right of course, I was drastically simplifying my points for the sake of the discussion.

It is quite normal to stage a partial rebellion against one's upbringing, it's part of the normal process of maturing into an adult. However, that tends to fizzle out when one's own children arrive. To be sure, there will always be those who do not follow the parental path. My contention is that they will remain a minority. Especially in the future when their lack of offspring will be extremely apparent. Feminists will be looked at with bemusement like the shakers today.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#279

Post by mafribe »

dragonwriter wrote: post #270
mafribe wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are so many, I don't have the energy to type millions of words, so here is but one link: http://www.lawlink.com/research/caselevel3/74059

Wait, you are arguing the fact that California's criminal statutory rape law has a conclusive presumption that a sexual act but someone under 18 is not voluntary while it's child support laws do not and let that be a question of fact for a court to resolve is "misandry in the harassment laws", and use as your strongest evidence a case where an adult woman was convicted of a felony for what was legally established in…

You don't think false rape accusations and convictions are an extreme case of harassment?

Re: “But he does good work.”

#280

Post by dpark »

js8 wrote: post #277
dpark wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. I'd agree that the OP is arguing that basically no one should employ this guy. I don't quite agree with that, but I also don't think that it's a real concern because someone will employ this guy whether it's a good idea or not. Regarding power, I don't agree with your assessment. Positions of power exist to provide social structure. Yes, positions of power are relevant to mating, but humans would have power str…

> ask them to accomplish something, leaders will emerge, because the alternative is disorganized, undirected, and wasted energy There are studies that indicate that the "natural leaders" will be predominantly men, because of intervention from both sexes (both sexes see by default dominant women as worse than dominant men). And I don't think alternative is necessarily wasted energy, for example democracy is a pretty g…

Democracy is specifically a method for placing people into positions of power.
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