No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities • Hacker News Board

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#121

Post by danielweber » Wed, Jun 22, 2016, 2:56 AM UTC

SkyMarshal wrote: post #65

matthewmacleod wrote: post #6

There should be no abuse - sexual or otherwise - in tech communities. Please call it out whenever you see it, in a polite but firm manner, and don't be afraid or intimidated by it. The vast majority of people will support you, and it's important to do so not only for your own protection but for others that might not be so willing or able to do the same. That said, something about the tone of this blog post is utterly…

>That said, something about the tone of this blog post is utterly repellent to me and I'm struggling to put my finger on the reason why. It may be b/c she's conflating "rockstar" with "asshole", begging the question are all tech rockstars assholes, and are all tech assholes rockstars? Her personal experience seems characterized by a preponderance of evidence in support of that, but others may not have the same experi…

In my personal experience of nearly 20 years in the industry, there is a nearly perfect correlation between "people who continually find themselves giving quotes to the media" and "assholes."

That's among those I've worked with. I know there must be those who don't fit this type. But they haven't been in my personal circles.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#122

Post by said » Wed, Jun 22, 2016, 3:23 AM UTC

prawn wrote: post #58

said wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somewhere in between. For example: We recognize that false reports are very unlikely, but we also recognize there is currently an enormous social bonus awarded to victims of harassment, particularly female victims. Let's examine all the facts, and even if we can't gather enough evidence to take any action, we'll keep a record of this report for any future incidents.

What social bonus is awarded to victims enough to justify speaking out? I'd say any negatives greatly outweigh the attention they might receive. Countless victims never come forward for good reason. If any corporation used your suggestion as an official statement including the "but we also" segment, they'd be thrashed mercilessly in the media, and for good reason. Why not just start with: "All complaints will be inve…

> What social bonus is awarded to victims enough to justify speaking out?

Particularly in tech, from most to least common:

1. An outpouring of sympathy

2. An outpouring of attention

3. Mobs of angry people ready to fight on your behalf

4. Job offers

5. Conference speaking offers

> they'd be thrashed mercilessly in the media

Yes, they would.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#123

Post by tptacek » Wed, Jun 22, 2016, 3:27 AM UTC

NetTechM wrote: post #120

tptacek wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One problem with rockstarism is that it can create safe havens for abusers. But there are all sorts of other concerns. I'm surprised to see people defending it here; HN has always struck me as a community that is pretty cynical about rock stars.

Cynical yes, but some people do really good work and just end up in the position because of it. Too much painting with a broad brush and trying to redefine a word normally reserved for an Ace team member.

I think that's a feigned concern, and that HN's cynicism about the term "rock star" far predates this post.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#124

Post by kyledrake » Wed, Jun 22, 2016, 4:01 AM UTC

chroma wrote: post #81

tptacek wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rock star abusers are a subset of abusers, so your proposed change doesn't work. Try to give the piece the most charitable possible interpretation. Leigh Honeywell knows more about Daniel J. Bernstein and Theo de Raadt than most people on HN. There's an interpretation of this post that suggests she's claiming that DJB and Theo are abusers, but common sense --- we don't even need charity! --- tells us that's probably…

If you want to just focus on what you call "abusive rock stars", then I think the most accurate term is "abusive charlatan". That covers the lack of skill as well as the fame-seeking. In terms of reading charitably, I'm sorry to say that you're the one who needs to do more of it. I never implied that the author might be accusing those people of abusive behavior. In fact, that idea didn't even occur to me until you me…

I'm with you on this one. I don't like abusers and assholes, but I like the title, and intend to continue to use it in a positive light, sparingly, and with good purpose. In my interpretation of the title, some rock stars are jerks, others are actually pretty good people.

When I used to work in politics, after he did a great speech at the DNC convention, I called Obama a "rock star" that was going to go on to big things. That was long before he announced his run for presidency. Mind you, I didn't even vote for him and I said that (I proudly throw my presidential vote away for the Libertarian candidate every year).

That title works best, naturally, when it isn't diluted down in crappy job postings.

I'm all for tossing out abusers here, don't get me wrong. But honestly, as perhaps the only person here that has ever actually contracted a form of Cholera (long story), I still wouldn't want to live in a world that's only plumbers, and I don't think you would either.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#125

Post by tptacek » Wed, Jun 22, 2016, 4:06 AM UTC

kyledrake wrote: post #124

chroma wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to just focus on what you call "abusive rock stars", then I think the most accurate term is "abusive charlatan". That covers the lack of skill as well as the fame-seeking. In terms of reading charitably, I'm sorry to say that you're the one who needs to do more of it. I never implied that the author might be accusing those people of abusive behavior. In fact, that idea didn't even occur to me until you me…

I'm with you on this one. I don't like abusers and assholes, but I like the title, and intend to continue to use it in a positive light, sparingly, and with good purpose. In my interpretation of the title, some rock stars are jerks, others are actually pretty good people. When I used to work in politics, after he did a great speech at the DNC convention, I called Obama a "rock star" that was going to go on to big thi…

I'm harping on this, I know, but I really don't think the goal of this post is to get people to stop using the term "rock star", and the fact that people keep suggesting that's the controversy makes me worry people haven't really read the piece very carefully.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#126

Post by dang » Wed, Jun 22, 2016, 4:33 AM UTC

dcposch wrote: post #103

tptacek wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is ironic, since yours is a name I know principally from an attempt to whip up an Internet pitchfork mob, concerning a situation you had nothing to do with and know very little about: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11724935 (and more on Twitter, of course). Please tell us more about how important this principle is to you. Also, much as I hate to spoil a fun new narrative wave for you to surf, but none of t…

Just wanted to give some context. Here, I'll link directly to the thread you're talking about, so people can judge for themselves. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11726188

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11950730 and marked it off-topic.

Edit: Since people objected and it seems like a bad idea to argue about this, I've put it back.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#127

Post by droithomme » Wed, Jun 22, 2016, 4:46 AM UTC

dang wrote: post #126

dcposch wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just wanted to give some context. Here, I'll link directly to the thread you're talking about, so people can judge for themselves. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11726188

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11950730 and marked it off-topic. Edit: Since people objected and it seems like a bad idea to argue about this, I've put it back.

Shouldn't you have detached at the parent of that one? The other person accused him of something, and he responded pointing out that that person was being untruthful. Detaching his response leaves the accusations made against him and removes his response which proves the accusations are false. Presumably you as mod did not intend to do so because if it was intentional it is certainly an egregious abuse of mod powers and totally unethical, as I'm sure you agree fully.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#128

Post by droopybuns » Wed, Jun 22, 2016, 6:15 AM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #6

There should be no abuse - sexual or otherwise - in tech communities. Please call it out whenever you see it, in a polite but firm manner, and don't be afraid or intimidated by it. The vast majority of people will support you, and it's important to do so not only for your own protection but for others that might not be so willing or able to do the same. That said, something about the tone of this blog post is utterly…

The thing I find repellent is this: she is offering up a replacement set of rules that everyone else should follow. It reminds me of Jacob's behavior. That guy sat in judgement of and shamed people like a catholic priest. But she does it too, without any sense of irony or introspection.

I think the repellence comes from cognitive dissonance.

I recognize that most people are probably way more social than me. So maybe you are also averse to this kind of compassionless judgement of other people's behavior.

For what it is worth, I find these people making proclamations about how everyone should behave (in particular, based on their field of interest) to be world champion fart sniffers. Hopefully some day they will grow up and stop demanding that other people conform to their whims.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#129

Post by kyledrake » Wed, Jun 22, 2016, 6:39 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #125

kyledrake wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with you on this one. I don't like abusers and assholes, but I like the title, and intend to continue to use it in a positive light, sparingly, and with good purpose. In my interpretation of the title, some rock stars are jerks, others are actually pretty good people. When I used to work in politics, after he did a great speech at the DNC convention, I called Obama a "rock star" that was going to go on to big thi…

I'm harping on this, I know, but I really don't think the goal of this post is to get people to stop using the term "rock star", and the fact that people keep suggesting that's the controversy makes me worry people haven't really read the piece very carefully.

Subtly equating abusive behavior with people that are energetic and ambitious is clearly baked into the nature of this conversation and that particular facet is quite controversial to me, and to a lot of people here that are likely as concerned about abusive behavior as I am.

We don't need to institutionally get rid of "rock stars". Their ambition for attention and fame is a recipe for a lot of great things. What I think we really need here is to get better at not enabling them to be abusive, and for calling them out when they are.

I also do think we need to get better at choosing who our rock stars are, an opinion I got a long time ago from watching Limp Bizkit win a music award.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#130

Post by MagnumOpus » Wed, Jun 22, 2016, 7:32 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #17

Animats wrote: post #14

Reworking entire organizations to deal with one jerk is overkill. Applebaum has a Wikipedia entry, which is worth reading.[1] He's been kicked out of the Tor Project, the Cult of the Dead Cow (an old and respected hacking group), and Noisebridge. They all seem to have dealt with the problem. But he does have his supporters.[2] Reading all this, it looks like a routine jerk problem. None of this has led to criminal ch…

"None of this has led to criminal charges. I dunno." Can you just come right out and say whatever it is you're implying with those last two sentences? Thanks!

He implies the obvious: the evidence is hearsay that hasn't stood up in court (and apparently nobody is even trying) - though it seems to suffice to ruin the guy's life.