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No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

hypatia.ca

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Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#91
post #79
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not justice when we put the victim on trial (As we do in most rape cases), but we do it anyway.

So you are implying that makes it okay to assume everyone accused is guilty for all intents and purposes?

I feel like lots of people here are patting each other on the back about a snipey "innocent until proven guilty" argument they've derived by cutting one of this post's sentences in half. No, this post does not say it's "okay to assume everyone accused is guilty for all intents and purposes".

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#92
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this post is way off base because it equates being a difficult employee with being a sexual predator and full blown criminal. It then outlines how to "fix" the problem with some decent solutions combined with very specific politically motivated initiatives (many links to feminist sites...). It also has a tone of absolute authority that is mirrored in the flagging and downvoting of comments happening in this v…

Ignoring sexual harassment/etc. which you seem to agree is wrong.... why should I (or the rest of the tech community) put up with assholes? I'm not giving them a free pass either. Both behaviors are wrong (one MUCH worse), but neither need to be tolerated.

why should I (or the rest of the tech community) put up with assholes?

You shouldn't. But you also shouldn't let people appropriate the political capital of a topic as serious as sexually predatory behavior to argue points about assholes. Not only because the magnitude of the negatives they introduce into the world are so widely disproportionate, but also because "asshole" is a suspiciously flexible term. "Asshole" doesn't even describe behavior, it describes an assessment of behavior. From a mild but harmless annoyance, all the way to fireable and beyond.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#93
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this post is way off base because it equates being a difficult employee with being a sexual predator and full blown criminal. It then outlines how to "fix" the problem with some decent solutions combined with very specific politically motivated initiatives (many links to feminist sites...). It also has a tone of absolute authority that is mirrored in the flagging and downvoting of comments happening in this v…

Ignoring sexual harassment/etc. which you seem to agree is wrong.... why should I (or the rest of the tech community) put up with assholes? I'm not giving them a free pass either. Both behaviors are wrong (one MUCH worse), but neither need to be tolerated.

[deleted]

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#94

In the list describing "a few signs that help you identify when you have a rock star instead of a plumber", it seems like you could replace every occurrence of "rock star" with "jerk".

No, you can't, because most jerks do not have fandoms, and most jerks don't generate fawning media coverage. The social power abusive rock stars accumulate is what makes them so problematic.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#95

There should be no abuse - sexual or otherwise - in tech communities. Please call it out whenever you see it, in a polite but firm manner, and don't be afraid or intimidated by it. The vast majority of people will support you, and it's important to do so not only for your own protection but for others that might not be so willing or able to do the same. That said, something about the tone of this blog post is utterly…

I think this post is way off base because it equates being a difficult employee with being a sexual predator and full blown criminal. It then outlines how to "fix" the problem with some decent solutions combined with very specific politically motivated initiatives (many links to feminist sites...). It also has a tone of absolute authority that is mirrored in the flagging and downvoting of comments happening in this v…

> when it casually calls for things like tossing due process and burden of proof out the window

This is so important.

Preface: I am not defending Jacob Appelbaum at all here---the evidence of wrongdoing in his case looks solid.

Encouraging internet pitchfork mobs is wrong. Morally wrong. Due process can be frustratingly slow, but the principle of innocent until proven guilty is vital.

Preemptively labelling people "oppressors" or "abusers" is wrong.

--

Story time. The scene is my high school sophomore English class, ~9 years ago. There was a huge news story about some men on Duke lacrosse team hiring a stripper and then raping her. It was the perfect storm of outrage: multiple white men from a privileged background, a single black woman, a rape accusation.

In English class, we debated the ethics of the case, rape culture, and so on.

I pointed out that with no witnesses and no rape kit, the only incriminating evidence was the accuser's word. I said that the accusation might well be true, but that we should reserve judgement until the court case ran its course.

I got a lot of flak for saying that. A few classmates said I was being misogynistic and that I was part of the problem. The teacher lectured me somberly about how much courage it takes to report abuse and how important it is to believe such reports.

--

A few months later, the men were acquitted fully and the accuser admitted she had fabricated the whole story.

To this day, if you Google any of the mens' names, the first page is full of national news stories about how they raped someone.

--

Here's a picture from a few days ago. Spoiler alert, the arrows point to the wrong apartment.

https://twitter.com/bcrypt/status/741339303356178433

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#97
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ignoring sexual harassment/etc. which you seem to agree is wrong.... why should I (or the rest of the tech community) put up with assholes? I'm not giving them a free pass either. Both behaviors are wrong (one MUCH worse), but neither need to be tolerated.

why should I (or the rest of the tech community) put up with assholes? You shouldn't. But you also shouldn't let people appropriate the political capital of a topic as serious as sexually predatory behavior to argue points about assholes. Not only because the magnitude of the negatives they introduce into the world are so widely disproportionate, but also because "asshole" is a suspiciously flexible term. "Asshole" d…

> But you also shouldn't let people appropriate the political capital of a topic as serious as sexually predatory behavior to argue points about assholes.

I'm not. But I've seen FAR TOO MANY statements here and elsewhere that provable death threats or sending porn pics is wrong but anything no matter how jackassy up to that is fair perfectly acceptable. I'm VERY tired of that attitude.

And I don't believe in the slippery-slope of assholeness. Everyone knows their definition, I don't think it will slip to anything trivial. Asshole will not equal annoying any time soon.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#98
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this post is way off base because it equates being a difficult employee with being a sexual predator and full blown criminal. It then outlines how to "fix" the problem with some decent solutions combined with very specific politically motivated initiatives (many links to feminist sites...). It also has a tone of absolute authority that is mirrored in the flagging and downvoting of comments happening in this v…

> when it casually calls for things like tossing due process and burden of proof out the window This is so important. Preface: I am not defending Jacob Appelbaum at all here---the evidence of wrongdoing in his case looks solid. Encouraging internet pitchfork mobs is wrong . Morally wrong. Due process can be frustratingly slow, but the principle of innocent until proven guilty is vital. Preemptively labelling people "…

This is ironic, since yours is a name I know principally from an attempt to whip up an Internet pitchfork mob, concerning a situation you had nothing to do with and know very little about:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11724935

(and more on Twitter, of course).

Please tell us more about how important this principle is to you.

Also, much as I hate to spoil a fun new narrative wave for you to surf, but none of the authors of this post condone vandalizing the homes of people accused of abuse. In fact: you quoted one of the more vocal Appelbaum critics as doing exactly the opposite, while sneakily implying otherwise.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a weak undercurrent of condescension in the post (I've seen worse from Model View Culture); you may be picking up on that. I'm more interested in the un(der)examined assertion that, when it comes to accusations of sexual misconduct, the accused should have a presumption of guilt . Have there been any published arguments in favor of this?

> the accused should have a presumption of guilt That may be how social media work, that's absolutely not how justice should work. Anybody can be accused of sexual misconduct on social media. It's not justice when one can't defend himself.

I think that there's a bit of a misunderstanding about this section, both amongst people who are disturbed by it and a few of the people seeking to justify it. I don't think that the audience here is intended to be communities at large; I think the intended audience is specifically those people who have an ethical (and perhaps legal) obligation to investigate allegations or rumours of exploitation within their organization. I believe the authors are arguing that they, specifically, have no business issuing anyone with a "presumption of innocence" in leu of a thorough examination of the circumstances, regardless of whether or not they find the whole thing awkward or socially embarrassing.

I could be wrong, of course, and in fact I am wrong in my imputations of the intention of others with startling frequency. However, I am usually fairly aggrieved by the sort of apologetics with which feminism becomes an excuse for the arrogation of power, and I am not really getting that feeling in this case.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#100
post #89

Was this just taken off the HN front page?

Almost definitely not; rather, the post was probably flagged by users. This happens all the time, and your question is a very common one.

'Flagged by users' - Interesting. Do some of these users happen to be friends with 'Jacob Appelbaum'?

I understand, the whole system is rigged to praise rock stars and screw the plumbers.

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