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Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

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Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#131

Post by rimantas »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #17
danso wrote: post #14

Ironically, I sometimes fear Apple would be the harbinger of programming's death, what with how much can be done via consumer-friendly app and touch-screens. It didn't help hearing about OSX becoming macOS, which would be well in line with a dystopian future in which the only people who need to know about plaintext and file systems are the full-time Apple programmers. But this sounds like a great initiative...and als…

I think the invention of the GUI killed the dream of mainstream programming. If computers had to be interacted with in ways that resembled programming - like a UNIX prompt - then people would be more used to the way computers actually work, with functions and parameters instead of icons and settings menus. I really hope that raspberry PI gets more mainstream appeal as time goes on. I fear the separation between coder…

What kind of weird dream is that? Do people also have dreams about mainstream odontology or mainstream plumbing? WTF is wrong with the programmes that they want to turn entire population into lookalikies?

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#132

Post by MBCook »

draw_down wrote: post #42
s3r3nity wrote: post #2

It seems like a lot of folks don't give Tim Cook enough credit in the post-Steve Jobs world for a lot of the philanthropic work Apple has done for education (as well as for the LGBTQ community.) Kudos to them for this initiative - and I'll be excited if this expands to adults at some point.

I wouldn't really call it philanthropic. Tech companies do this sort of stuff because of labor costs.

What do you mean because of labor costs? Do you think they're going to hire 12 year olds?

If anything this will increase labor costs because now they need Geniuses to cover these classes (as well as costs for possible damage to the iPads used) in addition to normal Apple store staffing.

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#133

Post by thecosas »

bitserf wrote: post #91
plg wrote: post #32

I took my kid to one of these last year. It was fairly useless. They drag around little action-icons into a list to make an animated character move around and do stuff. My 11-year-old was bored stiff. Edit: PS the Apple Store employee who ran this thing (he was a very nice guy) admitted he had zero coding experience himself

It will be interesting to see if Swift Playgrounds on iPad changes the landscape here. Simple intro courses, but it's got real Swift compiler + runtime, and you can call straight into all the native APIs if you jump out of the guided tour.

With the recent Game Center APIs for live streaming, you can apparently do live streaming of Swift Playgrounds on services like Twitch as well.

Might be nothing, but opens up a lot of possibilities for people just getting started.

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#134

Post by rimantas »

iamleppert wrote: post #120

It would be more useful to teach them an ultra-simple language like BASIC (there was an article posted about it recently -- the early DOS version -- still being the best language/IDE to teach kids), or even a stripped down version of javascript. Imagine the advantages in pure thought that would come for those kids that are able to grok functional programming at age 8?

Why do you want to expose kids to the horrible mess called JavaScript? And you can teach functional programming with Swift, thank you very much.

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#135

Post by danso »

radlad wrote: post #46
danso wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I don't have much reasoning on the specifics of OSX to macOS as they've been recently revealed, just the general skepticism that one operating system could achieve the best of both systems...in the same way that Windows 8.1, in my limited usage, was a fairly compromised experience. But I'm saying that as someone who can't imagine how skilled engineering could satisfactory thread the needle...and I'm giving sho…

I don't think macOS is targeting touch screens -- and it's not a combination of OSX and iOS. It's simply a renaming of the OSX system.

I don't disagree...such an evolution would be too drastic and unnecessary given the desktop and iPad Pro ecosystem...but to presume that Apple might someday make macOS and iOS intertwined doesn't require a drastic reading between the lines:

- the top feature in the Apple macOS preview is the porting of an exclusive iOS feature (Siri)

- there weren't any huge new features in Yosemite, though the top billed feature is split screen, which was subsequently introduced to iOS9. You can notch that as a victory for the Desktop-worldview...but the other big feature I remember in Yosemite was bringing over Metal, which was introduced in iOS 8.

- for Mavericks, which had many more changes, the two top What's New features are iBooks and Maps...two iOS apps that do not particularly change up the Desktop experience.

- Other developers might disagree with me, but while I've been mostly happy as a developer on OSX, I can't recall the last time Apple added something that hugely changed my experience as a developer...Bash on 10.11.5 is still the same Bash as on 2007...almost a decade ago. The freeing of the Office apps was very nice, though I don't use them so can't say how well they've been maintained. I do know that iTunes and iPhoto continue to be a disruptive shitshow, and nearly every app that I use on a daily basis, from Chrome, to Dropbox, to Google Chrome, to Steam and Atom...are third-party.

For fucks sake, one of the small things that would bring me daily happiness is a built in version of flux. But not only did Apple steal flux's thunder by blocking the iOS flux app and then adding Night Shift, they still haven't added it to OS X, which is where flux originated...and I don't see it as part of macOS.

- And then there's the hardware. I don't pay enough attention to PCs to know whether Appple is still outpacing them, but the rate and quality of new first-party peripheral does not feel like Apple is pushing hard on this front. I love the trackpads (a feature that has followed innovation on iOS), but I want a mouse, and the Apple first-party mice are terrible. I do love my several-years old aluminum keyboard...but the new one didn't seem to be a worthwhile improvement for the price jump.

- and of course, there's the Apple Display situation. No other Apple product would more greatly improve my computing experience and I am more than happy to pay the premium...the amount of time and money I've wasted in researching and buying third-party monitors that for whatever reason, aren't as seamless as the 5 year old Thunderbolt display, had more than exceeded the Apple premium sticker price.

- the iOS App Store has its problems...but the Mac App Store does not feel like an ecosystem that Apple has put nearly as much effort in helping out developers (or consumers)

- the iPad Pro is marketed as "your next computer"

Oops, meant that to be a simple list and not a rant. But typing it out on my iPad was slow enough that I kept thinking of other signs of non-desktop-enthusiasm for Apple :)...you can argue that Apple isn't overtly hampering the desktop...but it's hard to argue that Apple sees as much potential from desktop, based on its recent product releases.

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#136

Post by gdubs »

gshulegaard wrote: post #63

I am pretty surprised by the general lack luster comments bordering on negativity here. Personally, I think it is great to see a major retailer take even a misguided stab at improving child tech education which has quickly fallen behind demand (in America). Do I think the approach is more than a little bit wrong? Sure, GUI programming a non-useful task wouldn't be my choice. Would I prefer a more robust longer-term p…

I'm reading "Bringing up Bébé" – a book written by an American woman who raises her child in Paris. When they take their toddler girl to swim lessons, everyone is in the pool swimming around together. Occasionally the instructor swims up to them and says, "hello". Eventually, on the third class she finally says, "Excuse me, but when are you going to actually, you know, teach my kid to swim?". The instructor smiles and tells them, "We don't teach toddlers how to swim."

She realizes that one cultural difference is that french parents don't expect their kids to learn things super early the way that Americans do – instead, they prefer to 'acclimate' their kids to various activities.

Not everyone lives in Silicon Valley where their parents are engineers, their neighbors' parents are engineers, they build drones and fly them in the park... Part of fixing inequality in education is at least acclimating kids to the idea of coding – hopefully sparking an interest that stays with them and grows.

Apple has long known that a way to build their customer base is to get them early in schools, so of course this is at least in part commercially motivated. But at the end of the day, companies can do things that help their bottom line and at the same time make a positive cultural impact[1]. Personally, I think we should applaud efforts to acclimate kids to things they might not be aware of, to help make them aware of what's possible in their lives.

1: https://www.gatesnotes.com/media/features/books/Bill_Gates_J...

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#137

Post by dclowd9901 »

jshevek wrote: post #54
dclowd9901 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I see the relevance of the program's proprietariness vs. its philanthropic value

I don't see the issue as being fundamentally about whether or not it is proprietary per se, but Apple's choice of technology makes it clear that Apple's actions are self interested, and not philanthropic. Philanthropic means "seeking to promote the welfare of others, especially by donating money to good causes; generous and benevolent". It does not mean "selfish action which happens to also benefit others" There are…

People are often incentivized by providing philanthropy, if not monetarily, then simply by feeling better about themselves or guilt they might feel. In my humble opinion, if someone has a selfish reason to give, they're still giving.

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#138

Post by dang »

dublinben wrote: post #3

I don't think it's necessarily fair to call this program "philanthropic." It's teaching kids how to use proprietary and commercial software, like iMovie, iBooks, and Tynker, when completely free alternatives exist like Blender and Scratch. This is essentially building a new generation of future Apple customers.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11946924 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#139

Post by dang »

goldenkey wrote: post #9

Its a lot different considering that eating Uncle Ben's afro-american rice doesnt indoctrinate someone into a skillset of only eating long grain pilaf rice. Ie a toolset that only works on mac and thus providing future customers, advocates, and users of Apple products. You really should avoid these shit-for-brains analogies on a forum like HN. We are better than that.

You've repeatedly posted uncivil and unsubstantive comments to HN. Please stop doing that.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11947087 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#140

Post by duderific »

rimantas wrote: post #126
jshevek wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, 8 year olds often ask more penetrating questions than adults. If they take an interest in understanding something, they often desire to understand it on the deepest level possible for them - quickly exceeding the capacity of their parent or teacher to explain (unless the adult is a 'renaissance person'). (Edit: or a competent teacher with adequate training relevant to the subject) If the 8 year olds…

Have you ever met 8 year olds? Care to give some examples of "more penetrating questions"?

Maybe jshevek means that they tend to ask "why" type questions which can be difficult to answer, as opposed to "how" type questions which are less difficult to answer.
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