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“But he does good work.”

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Re: “But he does good work.”

#141

Post by MrZongle2 »

harpastum wrote: post #138
MrZongle2 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you see behaviors like this and let it happen, you're complicit ... if you're in a position of authority (someone's boss) and you let it happen, you may also be criminally liable." As another older guy, also happily married, I agree completely. That said, as someone who hasn't observed behavior like this while in the industry and certainly doesn't practice it.... God , I'm tired of being painted with a broad brus…

The thrust of the grandparent's point was that if you only stand up if people "have issues" with you, you're leaving a bunch of people behind who don't have the power to defend themselves. If you really haven't observed it, you're either not dealing with a large number of people per day, or you're ignoring the issues around you. In my experience, this behavior is pervasive. There are a million reasons why it's hard t…

"So, if you ignore the problem because you're "just doing your best day-to-day", you are part of the reason that the situation is not getting better."

Who says I'm ignoring the problem? I've agreed that there is a problem. My point is that there's a lot of us out there being lumped in with the real bad guys, and that gets old.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#142

Post by [deleted] »

mafribe wrote: post #120
smoyer wrote: post #64

From an older guy (and happily married) guy to the male population in tech. If you see behaviors like this and let it happen, you're complicit ... if you're in a position of authority (someone's boss) and you let it happen, you may also be criminally liable. But it's far worse ... what I hope is a small minority of bad actors are defining the definition of male in our culture. Since there's an even smaller number men…

are you willing to step up your game? I'm going to step up: what are you doing concretely to stop dead false accusations? What are you doing to counter the blatant misandry in current harassment laws? To wit, you wrote "If you're a woman being harassed ..." this is a blatantly sexist question. What if you are a man being harassed by a woman?

[deleted]

Re: “But he does good work.”

#143

Post by guard-of-terra »

danso wrote: post #15

I typed this response to a comment that called the OP "mostly bullshit" and that if someone does wrong, it is incumbent upon the victim to file charges or forever hold their peace. The comment was flagged so I couldn't submit what I typed, so I've pasted it here. I agree that it's hard to find black and white in accusations...but I'd argue that even the judicial system leaves more than enough gray to argue over. And…

But sitting and waiting for the problem to resolve is also very stupid and leads to learned helplessness.

How would rape problem ever get fixed if there are no cases and no time served?

It's a probiel when crime is blamed on "rape culture" rather on a concrete person. That's like accusing everybody but the perpetrator.

Making IT community resolve rape cases instead of specific authorities is counterproductive too. I doubt we're good at it.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#144

Post by smoyer »

MrZongle2 wrote: post #117
smoyer wrote: post #64

From an older guy (and happily married) guy to the male population in tech. If you see behaviors like this and let it happen, you're complicit ... if you're in a position of authority (someone's boss) and you let it happen, you may also be criminally liable. But it's far worse ... what I hope is a small minority of bad actors are defining the definition of male in our culture. Since there's an even smaller number men…

"If you see behaviors like this and let it happen, you're complicit ... if you're in a position of authority (someone's boss) and you let it happen, you may also be criminally liable." As another older guy, also happily married, I agree completely. That said, as someone who hasn't observed behavior like this while in the industry and certainly doesn't practice it.... God , I'm tired of being painted with a broad brus…

"what I hope is a small minority of bad actors are defining the definition of male in our culture"

It feels weird to be quoting myself but I definitely agree with you ... I'm (finally) making this a proclamation because I don't want to be painted with that broad brush either. And I think that there's a very quiet majority of males who feel this is wrong but are unwilling to call it out.

I'm a WASP male and find there are multiple ways I can be vilified. I'm NOT owning that. If the view of men is going to change, the majority of us need to be speaking out against the abuse. There have been a couple instances where I've overheard the broad brush strokes you've described and pointedly asked "are we all that bad" ... you'll see back-pedaling and sometimes an admission that it's (also) a generalization.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#145

Post by bllguo »

MrZongle2 wrote: post #117
smoyer wrote: post #64

From an older guy (and happily married) guy to the male population in tech. If you see behaviors like this and let it happen, you're complicit ... if you're in a position of authority (someone's boss) and you let it happen, you may also be criminally liable. But it's far worse ... what I hope is a small minority of bad actors are defining the definition of male in our culture. Since there's an even smaller number men…

"If you see behaviors like this and let it happen, you're complicit ... if you're in a position of authority (someone's boss) and you let it happen, you may also be criminally liable." As another older guy, also happily married, I agree completely. That said, as someone who hasn't observed behavior like this while in the industry and certainly doesn't practice it.... God , I'm tired of being painted with a broad brus…

Firstly: "Please resist commenting about being downvoted. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading." Sometimes it just happens, there are people who simply disagree.

Secondly: this kind of "as long as I'm not doing anything wrong it's fine" attitude is precisely what the commenter was calling out as being not enough.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#146

Post by dloose »

gooseyard wrote: post #12

If a guy like this were to get a legitimate psychiatric diagnosis, what do you suppose it'd be? Not that I feel bad for the guy, mind you, rather I feel it'd be helpful to the community of people who have been affected by this kind of behavior to have an accurate name for it other than just saying the guy is a douchebag. I knew a guy in college who had some aspects of this guy's behavior and was diagnosed with narcis…

> I only have an armchair knowledge of psychiatry and I'd be interested to hear what somebody with experience has to say about it

Hopefully anybody with experience will know better than to diagnose someone over the Internet based largely on hearsay.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#147

Post by _greim_ »

Setting aside for the moment the facts of this particular case, I thought the article makes a good point in general.

> When harassment, sexual or otherwise, requires a cost-benefit analysis, you have failed.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#148

Post by dragonwriter »

mafribe wrote: post #120
smoyer wrote: post #64

From an older guy (and happily married) guy to the male population in tech. If you see behaviors like this and let it happen, you're complicit ... if you're in a position of authority (someone's boss) and you let it happen, you may also be criminally liable. But it's far worse ... what I hope is a small minority of bad actors are defining the definition of male in our culture. Since there's an even smaller number men…

are you willing to step up your game? I'm going to step up: what are you doing concretely to stop dead false accusations? What are you doing to counter the blatant misandry in current harassment laws? To wit, you wrote "If you're a woman being harassed ..." this is a blatantly sexist question. What if you are a man being harassed by a woman?

> What are you doing to counter the blatant misandry in current harassment laws?

What misandry in current harassment laws? Please cite the specific laws containing misandry, and identify the specific source of the misandry in the law.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#150

Post by harpastum »

MrZongle2 wrote: post #141
harpastum wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thrust of the grandparent's point was that if you only stand up if people "have issues" with you, you're leaving a bunch of people behind who don't have the power to defend themselves. If you really haven't observed it, you're either not dealing with a large number of people per day, or you're ignoring the issues around you. In my experience, this behavior is pervasive. There are a million reasons why it's hard t…

"So, if you ignore the problem because you're "just doing your best day-to-day", you are part of the reason that the situation is not getting better. " Who says I'm ignoring the problem? I've agreed that there is a problem. My point is that there's a lot of us out there being lumped in with the real bad guys, and that gets old .

I don't think you're getting lumped in with the "real bad guys".

There is a vast difference between being the source of a problem and failing to help stop a problem. Still, the only way to minimize the effect of the first group is to make an intense effort not to be in the second.

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