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“But he does good work.”

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Re: “But he does good work.”

#91

Post by collyw »

gnaritas wrote: post #71
collyw wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you never have to server jury duty if that is enough evidence for you.

The bar for firing is much lower than the bar for imprisonment, you obviously can't see that, but it's true none the less. That article contains first hand testimony of multiple incidence of abuse and names numerous witnesses so it's all easily verifiable; if that's not enough evidence for you to fire someone, you need to reevaluate your standards. If you wouldn't fire him for those complaints, you're complicit in hi…

You seem to have changed your argument from the original post, where there was no talk of firing. Anyway, go on and argue your strawman.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#92

Post by mordocai »

ultramancool wrote: post #77
chaz72 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A slippery slope, if you will? No, let this case stand on its own: The leaders of the Tor community were shown evidence they considered to be sufficient to boot this guy. It's a community they lead, they get to decide who is welcome. You want to start your own community and welcome him with open arms, you go right ahead.

Last I checked the Tor developers don't own the entire privacy community. That said, yes, they do lend a lot of legitimacy to this claim, but it just concerns me that no one has publicly put their name on a rape allegation and nothing has been taken up legally.

Why is a rape allegation needed? A history of sexual harassment, rape or not, is enough for me to kick someone out of any community I'm a part of.

There's the problem of false accusations, but I think there is enough "evidence" with this many coming forward (and many non-anonymously) and that Tor kicked him out too.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#93

Post by dragonwriter »

pjc50 wrote: post #81
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you have to live longer to experience this. Have encountered false accusations more than once in my life (not about me, but I knew they were false). If I'm typical, then they happen all the time everywhere?

False accusations of sexual harassment in particular, or accusations in general?

> False accusations of sexual harassment in particular, or accusations in general?

False accusations of sexual harassment do, in fact, happen (and, should a general perception that they do not occur become widely recognized, it would be reasonable to expect that that alone would make false accusations more common -- the general acceptance of the belief "no one would lie about X" encourages lying about X.)

Re: “But he does good work.”

#94

Post by ultramancool »

mordocai wrote: post #92
ultramancool wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last I checked the Tor developers don't own the entire privacy community. That said, yes, they do lend a lot of legitimacy to this claim, but it just concerns me that no one has publicly put their name on a rape allegation and nothing has been taken up legally.

Why is a rape allegation needed? A history of sexual harassment, rape or not, is enough for me to kick someone out of any community I'm a part of. There's the problem of false accusations, but I think there is enough "evidence" with this many coming forward (and many non-anonymously) and that Tor kicked him out too.

I certainly agree with your basic grounds, but there's a rape allegation needed when people are willing to spray paint "a rapist lives here" on your home.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#96

Post by incongruity »

dantillberg wrote: post #76
danso wrote: post #15

I typed this response to a comment that called the OP "mostly bullshit" and that if someone does wrong, it is incumbent upon the victim to file charges or forever hold their peace. The comment was flagged so I couldn't submit what I typed, so I've pasted it here. I agree that it's hard to find black and white in accusations...but I'd argue that even the judicial system leaves more than enough gray to argue over. And…

Edit: Oops, I misread the parent, and I agree that yes, seeking legal help in a case like this is much harder than with robbery, which is hard enough. ----- Robbery doesn't really make for a good comparison here: - Did you fear for your own physical safety (e.g. that the thief or their friends/etc might retaliate) in reporting the crime to the police? - Did you known the thief? Did you have friends in common, or did…

It actually does make a good case, IMHO.

The robbery experience is comparably simple for the victim and yet even for that, filing a report and being believed was difficult. Therefore, it makes it completely believable that filing a complaint for something like sexual assault would be undeniably hard for many people, in many cases.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#97

Post by samastur »

ultramancool wrote: post #80
adwn wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe because that's a very personal matter? I imagine that most people that have been victims of rape do not want their name to be part of the public discussion.

Perhaps, but if you're going to make public accusations against him, but then back out before anyone can validate them, that seems... suspect at best. What, it's better to let him go out and hurt others than to take it public or legal?

No, it really doesn't based on research so far.

I also do not understand your obsession with alleged rape. If it turned out that rape part was not true, but others were, would you see Applebaum differently?

I sure as hell wouldn't.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#98

Post by HarryHirsch »

zellyn wrote: post #66
HarryHirsch wrote: post #35

Everyone who advocates for codes of conduct needs to have a hard look at the Appelbaum story and answer cogently how a code of conduct would have defended against Jacob Appelbaum. That's the great weakness, they do not work at all against anyone in an elevated social position.

Most codes of conduct I've seen would have helped by: - making it explicit up-front that the behavior described is considered unacceptable by the community, which would help victims know that they have the support of the community - publicizing a way of reporting inappropriate behavior - setting up some kind of group governance for acting on reports All of those things seem incredibly helpful. And I'm sure I've misse…

Storytime: Sometime ago had materials stolen by a student who felt the need to get back at me. The kid did have a lengthy record of erratic behaviour, and I did report the incident to police. It caused great displeasure within the department, because the parents were wealthy and possible donors.

I'm convinced that the student handbook prevents non-sexual harassment of staff, and it's equally true that police and HR are the go-to contacts for that type of incident.

The employee and student manuals are the applicable codes of conduct. It's true that the workplace owns the problem now, and that there can be a pattern established (and one for myself as well), but come again about the incredible helpfulness! The world isn't black and white, and groups value peace, but they also value money and presenting a united front. The often value the latter two more than the peace of a fellow at the bottom of the totem pole.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#99

Post by ultramancool »

samastur wrote: post #97
ultramancool wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but if you're going to make public accusations against him, but then back out before anyone can validate them, that seems... suspect at best. What, it's better to let him go out and hurt others than to take it public or legal?

No, it really doesn't based on research so far. I also do not understand your obsession with alleged rape. If it turned out that rape part was not true, but others were, would you see Applebaum differently? I sure as hell wouldn't.

I certainly would.

There's a major difference between someone making some offensive comments (even repeatedly) and someone committing violent crime.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#100

Post by DanBC »

dantillberg wrote: post #76
danso wrote: post #15

I typed this response to a comment that called the OP "mostly bullshit" and that if someone does wrong, it is incumbent upon the victim to file charges or forever hold their peace. The comment was flagged so I couldn't submit what I typed, so I've pasted it here. I agree that it's hard to find black and white in accusations...but I'd argue that even the judicial system leaves more than enough gray to argue over. And…

Edit: Oops, I misread the parent, and I agree that yes, seeking legal help in a case like this is much harder than with robbery, which is hard enough. ----- Robbery doesn't really make for a good comparison here: - Did you fear for your own physical safety (e.g. that the thief or their friends/etc might retaliate) in reporting the crime to the police? - Did you known the thief? Did you have friends in common, or did…

That's the point -- someone had a difficult experience reporting a robbery, even though the definitions are much clearer and the evidence was much clearer. That person can imagine how much harder it is to report sexual violence.
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