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“But he does good work.”

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Re: “But he does good work.”

#11

Post by gnaritas »

js8 wrote: post #8

I disagree with the black and white view of morality that the article espouses. If people do something wrong, they should be punished, but banning them from community entirely seems a little medieval to me. People are human, and sometimes they are complicated, and can do good and bad at the same time.

> I disagree with the black and white view of morality that the article espouses.

What on earth are you talking about?

> If people do something wrong, they should be punished, but banning them from community entirely seems a little medieval to me.

He should be in jail, there's nothing medieval about separating a rapist from the community.

Anyone who introduces people to you by lying and saying you give good head in a business context is absolutely someone who needs to be completely ostracized, this is an abusive person with some serious disorder who should have been fired the first time that happened. That is not ever OK.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#12

Post by gooseyard »

If a guy like this were to get a legitimate psychiatric diagnosis, what do you suppose it'd be? Not that I feel bad for the guy, mind you, rather I feel it'd be helpful to the community of people who have been affected by this kind of behavior to have an accurate name for it other than just saying the guy is a douchebag.

I knew a guy in college who had some aspects of this guy's behavior and was diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (tragically, he fully embraced his condition), but I only have an armchair knowledge of psychiatry and I'd be interested to hear what somebody with experience has to say about it.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#13

Post by tehrei »

I like how moon_of_moon's comment got flagged the second he posted it, real good work silencing discussion like that, guys.

Relatedly, it's a bit sad what's happening to him. A few decades ago, he would have just been "that guy who makes the racy jokes" at an all-male shop, but over time our laissez-faire anything-goes culture has been taken over and thrust into a rather more corporate world, filled with people for whom our words that used to be simply racy are now akin to being stabbed through the heart. Such is the price of progress, I guess. I would suggest the companies mandating that people like him receive councelling, so they can function in today's diverse environments, but it feels really creepy for the company itself to be sending you to a mental health professional.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#14

Post by wiredfool »

ultramancool wrote: post #9
calibraxis wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Common as hell though. Not only do I know many who've explicitly told me about such attacks, but basic statistics indicates that many people we know have been attacked, regardless of them telling us. (Of course people often don't speak up when attacked, because the rest of us are generally complicit in maintaining that culture, for example shaming or silencing targets.)

Has anyone actually put their real name on something saying they were personally attacked by him yet? Last I checked everything was just vague accusations, has this changed?

If I'm reading it right, violetblue. (and 9 others listed in one paragraph of the article)

Re: “But he does good work.”

#15

Post by danso »

I typed this response to a comment that called the OP "mostly bullshit" and that if someone does wrong, it is incumbent upon the victim to file charges or forever hold their peace. The comment was flagged so I couldn't submit what I typed, so I've pasted it here.

I agree that it's hard to find black and white in accusations...but I'd argue that even the judicial system leaves more than enough gray to argue over. And because of that, I don't believe that things are ever as simple "if something is wrong, file charges" -- just like it's never as easy as "if you love someone, put a ring on it."

I'll likely have the privilege of never having to file charges for rape, but once I had to file charges as a victim of armed robbery. Even though I had plenty of evidence, in hand and forthcoming (Android location tracing)...I had a hell of a time convincing a detective that I wasn't faking a robbery for insurance purposes, just because I wasn't clear exactly what block i was on when it happened. I can't even fucking imagine what it is like convincing the system that sexual assault (or even harassment) has happened, but I imagine the friction is enough to deter people from taking necessary action until it's too late. It seems that some of these victims are able to talk themselves out of thinking that a colleague truly did wrong, and when others step up, they realize their mistake in being quiet.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#16

Post by adwn »

> Most of the outlets are having a hard time wrapping their heads around how this could go on so long within arenas whose missions are to fight against injustice and power imbalances, and to champion whistleblowers.

I see no dichotomy whatsoever. In fact, I would even say that individuals and organizations that pursue a "higher calling" (in this case, freedom from governmental authority) are more willing to sacrifice some less-valued members for the higher good – as evidenced by statements like "But he does good work".

Besides, not everyone who belongs to an ideological organization is in it for the ideology; some are there for the power and influence they can achieve from rising through the ranks. Judging by the descriptions given in this article, Jacob Appelbaum appears quite power hungry and manipulative.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#17

Post by TheGirondin »

gnaritas wrote: post #11
js8 wrote: post #8

I disagree with the black and white view of morality that the article espouses. If people do something wrong, they should be punished, but banning them from community entirely seems a little medieval to me. People are human, and sometimes they are complicated, and can do good and bad at the same time.

> I disagree with the black and white view of morality that the article espouses. What on earth are you talking about? > If people do something wrong, they should be punished, but banning them from community entirely seems a little medieval to me. He should be in jail, there's nothing medieval about separating a rapist from the community. Anyone who introduces people to you by lying and saying you give good head in a…

It depends on you worldview, if you find extrajudicial mob justice acceptable or if you believe in rule of law.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#18

Post by js8 »

ultramancool wrote: post #9
calibraxis wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Common as hell though. Not only do I know many who've explicitly told me about such attacks, but basic statistics indicates that many people we know have been attacked, regardless of them telling us. (Of course people often don't speak up when attacked, because the rest of us are generally complicit in maintaining that culture, for example shaming or silencing targets.)

Has anyone actually put their real name on something saying they were personally attacked by him yet? Last I checked everything was just vague accusations, has this changed?

The article has some links in it, I read another account from Isis Lovecruft, whoever that is.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#19

Post by camiller »

wiredfool wrote: post #14
ultramancool wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has anyone actually put their real name on something saying they were personally attacked by him yet? Last I checked everything was just vague accusations, has this changed?

If I'm reading it right, violetblue. (and 9 others listed in one paragraph of the article)

This paragraph from the article: "More witnesses and stories have surfaced since. These include Bill Budington of the EFF, Micah Lee of the Intercept, Nick Farr, Quinn Norton, Leigh Honeywell, Alison Macrina, Andrea Shepard, Meredith Patterson, and Isis Agora Lovecruft."

Re: “But he does good work.”

#20

Post by ultramancool »

camiller wrote: post #19
wiredfool wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I'm reading it right, violetblue. (and 9 others listed in one paragraph of the article)

This paragraph from the article: "More witnesses and stories have surfaced since. These include Bill Budington of the EFF, Micah Lee of the Intercept, Nick Farr, Quinn Norton, Leigh Honeywell, Alison Macrina, Andrea Shepard, Meredith Patterson, and Isis Agora Lovecruft."

Yes, but unless I'm mistaken, none of those people have publicly put their name on a rape accusation.
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