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American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

theatlantic.com

251–260 of 300 posts

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The more intelligent and clever always benefit, because they know how to use the system to their own purpose. This has been so since the beginning. [...] That's any given society I appreciate your post and don't want to sound negative or combative, but I do think your argument's presupposition that intelligence always prevails is an interesting topic of discussion. I question the veracity of that assumption, but I d…

You're speaking too narrowly. I said intelligent and clever, because there are intelligent people who are not clever enough to discover how to overcome their personal and political obstacles. Tesla, Grothendieck, Turing, Gaudi, James Watson, and Bobby Fischer are prime examples of this. When you learn beyond the rules of a system and discover the underlying patterns of the system, you are then able to exploit the sys…

OK, well you may be right, but I really feel obligated to say: Grothendieck didn't want to "overcome" his political obstacles. Turing didn't want to "overcome" his personal obstacles, etc.

I'm having trouble coming to the conclusion that these people being unsuccessful in the world has a lot to do with them, for example, being too stupid to overcome their sexual orientation, or because they were not clever enough to abandon their moral resolve...

We are not islands unto ourselves, and we did not evolve as islands unto ourselves.

All I'm saying is that it's more complex than "stack the odds in your favour and you'll always succeed," for a number of reasons... we evolved in groups, we live in a complex world, intelligence is a broad and complex subject, and we don't know everything.

I, personally, don't even want to live in a kind of world where we describe people with strong moral principles, or sexual preferences different to mine, as not clever enough to be successful, regardless of their other achievements.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#252
I don't buy this.

This is not a problem. Anti-intellectualism is the problem. Our culture encourages people not to be smart. In a sentiment captured by Marco Rubio when he said it is better to be a welder than a philosopher, we teach young people that non-intellectual pursuits are more noble (so long as they make money). We teach men that it is more manly to work with your hands. We teach women that service-sector jobs, or jobs that require more social acumen are more womanly. We teach people the false-dichotomy of left-right-brain dominance, making it easy believe that one is simply unequipped for logic and quantitative mental work. We teach black youth that their role models should be athletes and pop-stars, not people successful in STEM-fields (personal experience). Our popular culture characterizes smart people as weird, eccentric, and disconnected from the rest of humanity -- those tropes are obvious in the article's examples of "Big Bang" and Sherlock Holmes.

When my wife learned coding, all her old college girlfriends were amazed that she turned out to be so "smart". She was shocked, as she never saw herself as particularly smart (though she is), successfully learning to code is just a function of putting in the practice. It became apparent that her friends were socialized to believe that this coding was the exclusive domain of this mythical class of brainy people.

Sure some people are naturally smarter, thus it is relatively easier for them to do mentally laborious work. However, If the economy increasing favors people who can carry a heavier mental workload, then the first step to preparing citizens for participating in that economy is overcoming our culture's resistant strain of anti-intellectualism.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#253
Reading illiteracy is no longer a big problem. STEM-illiteracy is the new problem.

It is easier for some to learn how to read than it is for others. Yet as a society we don't give people who find difficulty in learning to read a pass on reading. Nor should we for STEM fields.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canadians and Europeans love to look down on Americans, we already know this. Thats all your comment adds is an example of that. People and movements (including the Trump supporter movement which you are alluding to) are very complex. And frankly you just don't understand.

And frankly you just don't understand. Well, it would be helpful if you could explain rather than just complain. The Trump phenomenon is baffling to many of us outside of the US. I can obviously grasp some of the key reasons – anti-establishment feeling, for example – but equally I'm confused by other aspects.

I'm outside the USA but I get it.

Average living standards are falling despite the general impression given by politicians and journalists. This is also true in Europe.

The West isn't doing as well as advertised and this traces back to the early 70s. Attrition has been going on for decades.

If you find this incomprehensible then you've got to understand if you are in SV or a major city that you're in the Core of the system, it is the Peripheral that first runs into difficulties when a down cycle appears.

Take countries such as Venezuela, South Africa. These are places on the edge of our economic system and they are blowing up. It is easy to ignore this because they were always, from our perspective, borked. In fact they used to be doing much better in the past.

The key point to grok is that many of our 'stats' about the world are incorrect. Interest rates are not really at zero percent. The economic system is fracturing and traditional models/tools don't work anymore. This is what it looks like when a complex system is in danger of falling to pieces. Larry Summers is borrowing from the same technological stagnation playbook as Peter Thiel. Oil prices halve without meaningful changes in economic growth. Hmmmm. Maybe something is up.

tldr; This is Bat Bear Country!

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check out the mania (and enormous $$$) around sports and sports figures, actors, and musicians. I can't recall a nerd ever getting an endorsement contract. The only nerd prize is the Nobel; the Oscars, Emmys, Grammies, Halls of Fame, Heisemann Trophies, etc., are for other professions. Just for a small slice of it, the mania over the Olympics. Billions and billions of dollars, wall-to-wall TV coverage, of 2 weeks see…

Nerds get endorsement contracts all the time . They're called research grants. Just look at the example of PMERP [0], for one. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Morris_External_Researc...

Research grants are not endorsement contracts. Have you ever seen a Nobel prizewinner on a box of Wheaties? pitching Hertz rent-a-car? Me neither.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#256
post #234

This is pretty silly. In any society, we must decide how to distribute the resources generated by that society. So you make the rules, set up enforcement, and plod along, making changes as you go, as far as you dare in the face of the inevitable political machinations of everyone involved. The more intelligent and clever always benefit, because they know how to use the system to their own purpose. This has been so si…

Human worth or, as I like to call it "respect" has nothing to do with equality of outcomes. There is a difference between benefiting materially or politically from how society is structured and social respect. There is a difference between paying someone more or less for doing a job and how you treat someone when you interact to them. Let me put it a different way... why should you respect raw intelligence over a per…

Your example is incongruous. Height is something you have no power to change, while intellegence can be made. And even if it cannot, it can often be substituted for hard work -- this is why the common trope of the smart person beat by the hardworking less smart person exists.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#257
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Big Biang Theiry is "nerdface." The audience is lsughing at the characters, not with them.

True, but the show is not mocking intellect or intelligence, it is mocking nerdiness. Which, believe it or not, is not really that highly correlated.

That would be news to the overwhelming majority of its audience.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#258

This is pretty silly. In any society, we must decide how to distribute the resources generated by that society. So you make the rules, set up enforcement, and plod along, making changes as you go, as far as you dare in the face of the inevitable political machinations of everyone involved. The more intelligent and clever always benefit, because they know how to use the system to their own purpose. This has been so si…

This is spot on.

Robert Sternberg wrote on intelligence, its evolutionary role and his theory of "successful intelligence" is well established nowadays.

Latest definition by AI researchers is summed up as: "Intelligence measures an agent’s ability to achieve goals in a wide range of environments"

People keep promoting basic income as the solution to automation instead of focusing on intelligence augmentation. We have a growing population incapable of creating anything worth of value, useless, unnecessary, with no economic value other than the body they have.

We will soon reach a point where their body is the only commodity they have. Not for its labor capacity but for its utility (blood, plasma, organ transfer, clinical trial guinea pigs, surrogates etc.).

When we have a population whose mind is incapble of creating anything of economic value, even slavery wouldn't be economically viable.

Realizing that the poor often turn to crime out of necessity/stupidity and the cost of imprisoning may be higher than simply handing them over the money, I too support basic income. However, don't think for a second that the existential crisis of feeling completely useless can be solved by a basic income to afford necessities, entertainment and wait for low cost living environment to kill them with disease and climate change.

I truly believe one reason people don't work on climate change is they want to use it as an excuse to deal with the poor in the future. After all, there is no moral dilemma when it is a natural disaster as opposed to genocide.

Capitalism is not for the poor. Products are built for people who can afford them. If there was an economic opportunity in serving the poor, everyone would be competing for that market.

Frankly, I'm really conflicted on this subject. On one hand, I fully agree with you and understand human nature is selfish and I often take a nihilistic worldview. On the other hand, we are an intelligent species capable of transcending our nature. I still don't see any use for supporting billions of people who can't produce or contribute anything other than basic human compassion (which is difficult to extend to billions)

With climate change and the flood of future immigrants (immigrating to survive) with little economic value, the growing isolation of individuals from society, the destruction of community and religion, political polarization; I don't know, I feel like it's going to be brutal.

Who knows, maybe I'm wrong and technology, abundance will uplift everybody? Wishful, hopeful thinking?

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#259
post #154
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the end of the day say that you paid everyone the same amount of money regardless of whether they worked or did not. And there was no additional way to make money. Maybe there was an additional barter economy where you could work for things that you could then trade for other things. How would that change things. Because now no one would have to work and would only do things if they wanted to do them. And everyone…

The system we have now is far from perfect, and it's being changed with every passing moment by more forms of automation. However, it's a system that was able to take a species of this earth and raise it out of the dirt to be able to mostly conquer its domain - and possibly the solar system and outer-space if we play our cards right. While some people who have gained powerful positions through their abilities (or the…

I can't help but thinking this is a sort of religious thinking. Similar to concepts of heaven. The point of life to feel good on a daily basis. Not to be miserable because you will get to some metaphorical heaven and if you don't follow the true way then you will never get there. There is no where to get to, it's all about the experiences. The world is rich with them if you are not busy being a tool for the Capital machine.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you living in the same world as the rest of us? Sure, there are people who fulfill the stereotype that you've repeated here. But among the nerdy people I've known you'll find some great people with rich, full lives. People who spend their work lives searching for evidence of dark matter can also climb mountains and have great family lives. Telemetry engineers who spend their days working on RF systems can spend t…

This is an all too common occurrence with "nerds" such as yourself on Hacker News: You are perhaps intelligent and high IQ. You are perhaps a successful telemetry engineer, yet you are BLIND when it comes to even a BASIC understanding how everything operates socially. Raw intelligence by itself, is scoffed at by the general population. Outside of your tight knit nerd-circle or a back office server room in Silicon Val…

Hang in there, it gets better.
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