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Doctors Without Borders doesn't take money from EU anymore

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Re: Doctors Without Borders doesn't take money from EU anymore

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because it is my heritage. My family history made it happen, and many families around us. I am a child of my mother and not a random baby thrown on a random spot on earth, I carry the burden of maintaining or improving the quality of life for my kids. - Doesn't mean that I do not wish that everyone in this world can have what I have, and I support helping others. - There are ways to come here and join our cultur…

And the only reason you are part of that family is luck. A Syrian refugee didn't choose to be born in Syria at a time when they would have to face civil war at some stage in their life. I think if the tables were turned are you had to flee to Syria your opinion would be vastly different.

Why explain his heritage through luck? It's not like there's a repository of souls that's randomly drawn upon everytime someone has a baby. Luck doesn't describe a causal world with a bit of noise.

It's because of the historical, and thus causal nature of the distribution of opportunity that we might have concern over the distribution.

But if we re-rolled the dice, it's not like the asian couple from around the world is suddenly going to have a caucasian baby. You being born where you were was a confluence of factors operating in a causal framework with some noise. A re-roll isn't going to make you a Hilton family baby.

Also, what a person is entitled to is a matter for society to determine. Society creates a construct that it feels is a wholesome lens or boundary, then it creates the structures to enforce it. There is no natural right to anything, including property, life, or even death (some states forbid you to choose your death). Society determines that property is useful, creates a structure to enforce it, and voila, you are now entitled to property.

Re: Doctors Without Borders doesn't take money from EU anymore

#162
post #19

It is very inefficient to bring people to Germany and other western countries in order to help them. We could help one person in Germany, or another 10 people in Turkey for the same money. Most people coming to Europe are economic migrantw, not from countries affected by war. Refugees who can not afford $4000 for transport are left without help. It all started when Turkey asked for humanitarian aid. Merkel would not…

You are probably right, people are dying in their thousands to cross the med because they want some more cash ...

It's not "some cash" - it's free lifetime income, healthcare, housing, guaranteed additional income for family members, proper schooling for children etc.

It's not greedy to try to obtain these with some risk and a $5k investment, but just wanting these is not a good enough reason for EU taxpayers to pay for millions of migrants - especially when there are many more needy who cannot afford to travel to Europe.

Re: Doctors Without Borders doesn't take money from EU anymore

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "We make something good for our children and we -have- to share it with the whole world in our house?" You mean you got lucky to be born somewhere that isn't currently at war and now you feel entitled to what you were born into?

Yes, because it is my heritage. My family history made it happen, and many families around us. I am a child of my mother and not a random baby thrown on a random spot on earth, I carry the burden of maintaining or improving the quality of life for my kids. - Doesn't mean that I do not wish that everyone in this world can have what I have, and I support helping others. - There are ways to come here and join our cultur…

The problem I see is that by invoking heritage/past, there's the thorny issue of Europe's sordid history of going to other cultures and exploiting them. Perhaps this gives 'us' even more responsibility to accept people into our culture.

I don't necessarily agree with that logic myself, but then I also don't feel that I'm entitled to what my 'heritage' brought me.

Personally my main concern with this whole issue is practicality. I'm concerned that a too-large influx of refugees (or economic migrants) might cause severe destabilization and further increase the growing right-wing sentiment.

Re: Doctors Without Borders doesn't take money from EU anymore

#164
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they want they can get what we have in their own country, they need to make that possible though. Oh trust me, they're trying. Western imperialism and colonialism has a habit of getting in the way though.

The west is not guilt-free, but it is not at fault for everything. If that were the case we would have seen great improvement after the western colonies didn't get in their way. (or are we in the way of their great victory in killing all others?)

I do agree that we're not at fault for everything. But expecting a post-colonial society to just do well after a long period of colonial abuse is a bit like expecting a person who is depressed or severely insecure as a result of childhood abuse/bullying/whatever to 'just get over it'. This is not how humans or societies work.

Re: Doctors Without Borders doesn't take money from EU anymore

#165
post #19

It is very inefficient to bring people to Germany and other western countries in order to help them. We could help one person in Germany, or another 10 people in Turkey for the same money. Most people coming to Europe are economic migrantw, not from countries affected by war. Refugees who can not afford $4000 for transport are left without help. It all started when Turkey asked for humanitarian aid. Merkel would not…

>It is very inefficient to bring people to Germany and other western countries in order to help them. We could help one person in Germany, or another 10 people in Turkey for the same money.

So let's start doing that, then close the borders

Re: Doctors Without Borders doesn't take money from EU anymore

#166
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for posting this. I am baffled at how some people just ignore reality and post (and believe in?) lies, even here on HN where most of us work with data. It's amazing that fact checking and critical thinking is so low in this internet age where information is freely available for everyone.

It's funny that you mention crtitical thinking when working with data. this data reports country of origin. Now make that critical thiught work please, and tell me why these refugees insist on goingfrom the safe Turkey to Germany?

Sure, here's two articles [1, 2] that describe the situation. Most of the refugees do stay in Turkey (including 1.9M Syrians acc. [1]).

[1] https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/09/29/why-dont-syrians-stay-tu...

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/20/amnesty-report...

Re: Doctors Without Borders doesn't take money from EU anymore

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are probably right, people are dying in their thousands to cross the med because they want some more cash ...

It's not "some cash" - it's free lifetime income, healthcare, housing, guaranteed additional income for family members, proper schooling for children etc. It's not greedy to try to obtain these with some risk and a $5k investment, but just wanting these is not a good enough reason for EU taxpayers to pay for millions of migrants - especially when there are many more needy who cannot afford to travel to Europe.

So they want a life like they had at home, before the war started.

Makes sense to me. I mean, I would prefer that over living in a refugee camp for 15 years and being treated as a second-class citizen, with no future. "To live" is more than just existing.

You'll note that the Syrian refugees are also going to places which don't list all the befits you described, like Brazil. Then again, there aren't many opportunities for them as they don't speak Portuguese.

If you had to flee your country, would you want to go somewhere where you couldn't speak with the locals, or get a job?

Re: Doctors Without Borders doesn't take money from EU anymore

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are probably right, people are dying in their thousands to cross the med because they want some more cash ...

It's not "some cash" - it's free lifetime income, healthcare, housing, guaranteed additional income for family members, proper schooling for children etc. It's not greedy to try to obtain these with some risk and a $5k investment, but just wanting these is not a good enough reason for EU taxpayers to pay for millions of migrants - especially when there are many more needy who cannot afford to travel to Europe.

> It's not "some cash" - it's free lifetime income, healthcare, housing, guaranteed additional income for family members, proper schooling for children etc.

None of those (aside healthcare) are the rights of someone given asylum, while you are waiting for support you 'may' be given housing and financial support. There is no "free lifetime income"

Re: Doctors Without Borders doesn't take money from EU anymore

#169

Why is the EU the only responsible for refugees? Why not other states? Why not Russia, the Gulf states, Japan or the United States? It is getting tiring the bashing against the EU. The EU is getting refugees at the rate it deems convenient, if some other state is worried about the situation in Syria please take refugees, but please stop labeling the EU as evil.

If you've ever been to Russia you will understand why people do not want to seek asylum there - they are as likely to be persecuted there as wherever they're coming from. Russians aren't terribly welcoming to non-Slavic peoples, and don't exactly have a wonderful human rights record, with the pogroms and the kulaks and all that.

What about Germany and the Nazis concentration camps?

Russia is a big country with a history of immigration from the soviet days, when people from the different republics where made to move to different areas of the country

Re: Doctors Without Borders doesn't take money from EU anymore

#170
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Say you are a non-profit that helps drug addicts, should you take money from drug dealers?

If you can find a drug dealer dumb enough to give you money, it would be irresponsible to not take it. That said, your situation has practically nothing in common with MSF's.

Untrue. Drug dealers often fund rehabilitation groups; good way to find customers, double profits, identify rats, etc. True rehab centers would never take funds from a dealer, and would be happy to go out of business because there were no more addicts in the world.

Refugees in the EU would not need Doctors Without Borders; in Turkey, refugees will need Doctors Without Borders.

If the EU wants to help Doctors Without Borders' mission, then it needs to take refugees and help them, not make more refugees Doctors Without Borders to help.

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