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Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

engineering.stanford.edu

251–260 of 316 posts

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#251

I am strongly against the view of the author. I see that the majority (or a large portion) of voters are fanatics that vote based on affiliation and fanaticism, not policies nor experience. Ie. The voting numbers are largely biased towards the political fanatic crowd. I see online voting as a way to increase the number of ordinary people that vote. Getting the voting population to 80%+ or more is good for democracy.…

Your comparisons overlook a major difference between the paradigms of paper and digital ballots. It's the same problem with autonomous cars. An unsafe car can cause a single crash. An unsafe autonomous car program could crash every car everywhere all at once. And with the current state of software development, we KNOW that these softwares are vulnerable.

With paper ballots, it's not easy to tamper with the entire vote. You need a huge, widespread effort. Or your country is so fucked that your government ignores the vote and makes up some numbers. Everybody knows it's fraudulent, but nobody can do anything about it.

With electronic ballots, it's suddenly trivially easy for just a tiny handful rogue elements to stealthily forge every vote without anyone even realizing there was fraud.

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#252

For a 2016 article about online voting, i'm really surprised to find no mention of block-chain related solutions... It seems most of the concern addressed here can be solve with this kind of "open-computing / open-data" technologies. If you are interested in this topic, I strongly advise you the reading of: https://medium.com/@DomSchiener/publicvotes-ethereum-based-v... And more generally what can be done with contra…

The article indirectly addresses that in the last paragraph: paper is something everyone understands. I'm all for improving processes with technology but I'll have to admit that even though I've been neck deep in Software development for 2 decades, the block-chain solutions require a fair amount of mental work for me. They may be good but I don't readily understand them. And I can guarantee you that my parents don't.…

Electronic voting machines are used in many places in the US. I can guarantee you most people couldn't give you any details on how they work. Yet they still accepted them relatively quickly.

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#253

I am strongly against the view of the author. I see that the majority (or a large portion) of voters are fanatics that vote based on affiliation and fanaticism, not policies nor experience. Ie. The voting numbers are largely biased towards the political fanatic crowd. I see online voting as a way to increase the number of ordinary people that vote. Getting the voting population to 80%+ or more is good for democracy.…

Your comparisons overlook a major difference between the paradigms of paper and digital ballots. It's the same problem with autonomous cars. An unsafe car can cause a single crash. An unsafe autonomous car program could crash every car everywhere all at once. And with the current state of software development, we KNOW that these softwares are vulnerable. With paper ballots, it's not easy to tamper with the entire vot…

I think you underestimate the sophistication needed to tamper with paper ballots. There's certainly a "boots on the ground" requirement for tampering, but the knowledge requirements are trivial compared to crypto attacks.

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#254
post #75

I'm strongly against online voting. The problem #1 is buying and manipulation of votes. Security and/or anonymity is much smaller issue IMO. In my country, barely 50% of people vote. Most people don't care about politics. "Incentivized" votes is a huge issue there. People are routinely brought to polling stations and given a thank-you beer on return. Agitators are using all kind of borderline-blackmailing techniques…

Corruption and incompetence are indistinguishable.

Electronic mediated systems are utterly infeasible to audit. Among other reasons, many failure modes are silent.

The good standard for election administration is the Australian Ballot (private voting, public counting), administered per precinct (distributed), counted onsite when the polls close. It's observable, there's a physical chain of custody (that can be verified), it has the largest attack surface area (increases the cost of attack).

On the privacy note, only the Australian Ballot preserves voter privacy while ensuring a public count is possible. Postal balloting, touchscreens, online voting all remove the secret ballot (otherwise they could not be verified).

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#255
post #249

In fact, online voting is such a dangerous idea that computer scientists and security experts are nearly unanimous in opposition to it. I hate when articles make these ridiculous claims in order to inflate their credibility. Are there problems the security community needs to address before using technology to vote in a democracy? Yes. Is online voting a danger to democracy? No, but there are bigger problems that need…

Coming to a future near you -- "Whole Gene Sequencing Attestation: What better to prove you're you, than you? Come by one of labs today to refresh your ID token!"

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#256
Is F.U.D. is the only toolwork activists know?

This article is ludicrous. Some of his proposed scams are so risky that are borderline childish. E.g.: massive phishing; in recent Canadian elections the Conservative Party tried something similar (search "Robocall scandal Canada") and got caught easily.

Truth is: online shopping & banking are way more profitable for hackers and, still, are very secure nowadays.

B.T.W.: the touchscreens the author despises so much are an huge success in Brazilian elections.

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#257
> Computers are very complicated things and there’s no way with any reasonable amount of resources that you can guarantee that the software and hardware are bug-free and that they haven’t been maliciously attacked.

Yeah, except that we have reliable open-source systems available now where every single decentralized transaction is known to everyone, such as Bitcoin. Thanks for the ignorant FUD, though

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#258

I am strongly against the view of the author. I see that the majority (or a large portion) of voters are fanatics that vote based on affiliation and fanaticism, not policies nor experience. Ie. The voting numbers are largely biased towards the political fanatic crowd. I see online voting as a way to increase the number of ordinary people that vote. Getting the voting population to 80%+ or more is good for democracy.…

I'm not sure it's fair to hand-wave the concerns presented in the article with your argument of "just make it fail-proof". How often is software really fail-proof? The more complex software gets, the more difficult it is to ensure that it's bug free enough to be fit for purpose, and that's what the article is effectively arguing; software for voting on a national scale (the size of the US) is going to have an incredibly difficult time finding a level of security and stability that is fit for purpose.

Also, I question the statement that a high percentage of voting is unambiguously good for democracy, especially with how people treat voting like making birthday wishes. I'm paraphrasing from Robert Heinlein here, but too many people think voting is like making a wish, and they want the results without any work or dedication to themselves, their goal, or their country. There are a lot of times when public opinion, in hindsight, was clearly in the wrong, yet a full public vote would have resulted in downright unconstitutional and oppressive results. We saw it with the civil rights movement, we saw it more recently with the right for two consenting individuals in the US to marry, and we'll continue to see how the public is more than willing to weigh in completely on subjects they know nothing about or how certain members of society are willing to throw away the rights of other citizens without a care in the world.

Please understand that I'm not advocating for tests or saying certain people can't vote; but I am saying that just adding more votes doesn't make democracy better, it in fact often works to reserve the power of democracy to an elite few.

And we've already seen how news organizations of all political bents, social networks, and so on have influenced public opinion with their outlets and software.

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably not. You could make it anonymous - the unique combination of your vote, your key, and the election blockchain could produce a password unique to you. This would allow you to verify that your vote was counted, but would not allow anyone else to do so - if they coerced you, you could run your key, the blockchain, and the opposite vote and produce a different password and your attacker would be none the wiser.…

Decoy votes. https://roamingaroundatrandom.wordpress.com/2014/06/16/an-mp...

In the end of the day, my vote is signed, and any of the bailout checkers can discover who I voted for. Also, I can not total the votes and verify their result.

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a matter of degree. Anyone can carry a cell phone into a voting booth to photograph their ballot. And we already have voting by mail in many jurisdictions.

Anyone can carry a cell phone into a voting booth to photograph their ballot. And then they can spoil the ballot before putting it in the box. Not so with this digital system. And we already have voting by mail in many jurisdictions. Which I'm also against, except possibly for emigrants.

In the state of Oregon votes are handled 100% vote-by-mail. I've never heard any complaints from them about voter coercion or other issues caused by not physically stepping into a voting booth.

If there are any issues caused by this in Oregon, or other locales that use vote-by-mail, how come these articles never bring them up? I can only surmise that vote-by-mail seems to work pretty well so far, so what's the rationale for being against it?

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