Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

engineering.stanford.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

231–240 of 316 posts

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#231

Post by athenot »

AdrienChey wrote: post #212

For a 2016 article about online voting, i'm really surprised to find no mention of block-chain related solutions... It seems most of the concern addressed here can be solve with this kind of "open-computing / open-data" technologies. If you are interested in this topic, I strongly advise you the reading of: https://medium.com/@DomSchiener/publicvotes-ethereum-based-v... And more generally what can be done with contra…

The article indirectly addresses that in the last paragraph: paper is something everyone understands.

I'm all for improving processes with technology but I'll have to admit that even though I've been neck deep in Software development for 2 decades, the block-chain solutions require a fair amount of mental work for me. They may be good but I don't readily understand them. And I can guarantee you that my parents don't.

This brings up the problem of having a solution that only a few experts know how it works. It's a hard sell on the rest of the population to have them trust these "certified voting technology experts" that would have to be in place.

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#232

Post by icebraining »

HelloNurse wrote: post #224
frobozz wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The paper based system guards against vote buying through the guarantee of secrecy. I go into a booth on my own, make my mark(s) fold my paper, and put it in a locked box. No one but me knows how I voted. If I go in with someone else, the officials will take action. You can try to buy my vote, but I can just take your money and vote however I want. If I can vote from wherever I like, then someone can stand over my sh…

The quasi-standard protocol to sell a paper vote is photographing the marked ballot inside the booth, before putting it in the box.

You can photograph it, then spoil it before putting it in the box.

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#233

Post by icebraining »

cmdrfred wrote: post #221
frobozz wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The paper based system guards against vote buying through the guarantee of secrecy. I go into a booth on my own, make my mark(s) fold my paper, and put it in a locked box. No one but me knows how I voted. If I go in with someone else, the officials will take action. You can try to buy my vote, but I can just take your money and vote however I want. If I can vote from wherever I like, then someone can stand over my sh…

> If I can vote from wherever I like, then someone can stand over my shoulder and watch me vote, then only pay for it if I do as I'm told. and this scales?

If it's digital, software can be written to verify it. Or even vote on your behalf, asking you only for the credentials.

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#234

Post by knodi123 »

sccxy wrote: post #193
DennisP wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why it's illegal to take a photo of your ballot, at least in most states in the U.S.

Wow, if it is illegal then it won't happen. They should make killing also illegal.

It's also illegal to become a cat burglar and pull a mission:impossible-style break in to alter votes after they have been cast.

it's very cynical and defeatist to argue that we should never try any solution that is not 100% perfect.

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#235

Post by icebraining »

relix wrote: post #196
rlpb wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You assume that a coerced voter has the freedom to go to the polling booth later to override a vote. What about coerced voters who are the victim of domestic abuse[1][2]? [1] http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/jun/02/uk.election2... [2] http://www.fahrenheit211.net/2015/12/04/oldham-was-it-the-be...

Exactly, so it is at least as secure against coercion as current methods.

No, it's not. The paper system allows you to spoil the vote after taking the picture. You can't do that with the digital system.

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#236

Post by icebraining »

greeneggs wrote: post #230
icebraining wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your second link: "True, if you consider vote buying a type of electoral fraud, the scheme is not fraud-proof." And of course, "vote buying" can be substituted by "coerced voting". Any system where someone can physically see the voter casting their vote is flawed, regardless of whatever tricks you then use to obscure it once it's in the system.

It is a matter of degree. Anyone can carry a cell phone into a voting booth to photograph their ballot. And we already have voting by mail in many jurisdictions.

Anyone can carry a cell phone into a voting booth to photograph their ballot.

And then they can spoil the ballot before putting it in the box. Not so with this digital system.

And we already have voting by mail in many jurisdictions.

Which I'm also against, except possibly for emigrants.

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#237

Post by franciscojgo »

mantas wrote: post #75

I'm strongly against online voting. The problem #1 is buying and manipulation of votes. Security and/or anonymity is much smaller issue IMO. In my country, barely 50% of people vote. Most people don't care about politics. "Incentivized" votes is a huge issue there. People are routinely brought to polling stations and given a thank-you beer on return. Agitators are using all kind of borderline-blackmailing techniques…

I am copy pasting my article's reply for the sake of debating this.

I, like you, live in a country were barely 50% of the population vote. This is exactly why I think Online voting is good for democracy. Essentially, more people will vote:

I am strongly against the view of the author.

I see that the majority (or a large portion) of voters are fanatics that vote based on affiliation and fanaticism, not policies nor experience.

Ie. The voting numbers are largely biased towards the political fanatic crowd.

I see online voting as a way to increase the number of ordinary people that vote. Getting the voting population to 80%+ or more is good for democracy. I see this as a positive.

Saying Online voting is a danger to democracy is like saying autonomous cars are a danger to safety.

Yes, if the autonomous system doesn't work and is made with loopholes that allow dangerous stuff, it will pose a danger. But if made to work fail-proof, it will be infinitely better.

There's no point in saying something will not work if your only argument is based on the proposition that it's going to be broken before it's even used.

Sure, an unsafe car is not safe. The only way to make it safe is to make sure it's safe.

The only way "democratic" online voting will work is to make sure it's "democratic".

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#238

Post by marcosdumay »

adrianN wrote: post #86
Synaesthesia wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are big opportunities here for the extension of democracy. Democracy as it stands is quite weak - technically a Polyarchy, meaning that elected officials make decisions which we ratify. This could mean citizens could participate in decision making. The same reason is why the government and many people will try to oppose it, because greater democracy is a threat to any power system. The reason why people…

Do you really want citizens participating though? I have no clue about what it takes to run a state and I'm not a lawyer and can't really read new laws. Also, I have a job and very limited free time that I don't want to spent on keeping up with new developments in politics. So my opinions are likely very biased and quite useless for the political process. Even elected officials seem to have a hard time reading all th…

> Do you really want citizens participating though?

What is the alternative? Some aristocracy deciding matters without any consent from the citizens?

If you get any alternative that's actually better than the citizens participating, I'd love to hear it.

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#239

Post by marcosdumay »

mantas wrote: post #100
Synaesthesia wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are big opportunities here for the extension of democracy. Democracy as it stands is quite weak - technically a Polyarchy, meaning that elected officials make decisions which we ratify. This could mean citizens could participate in decision making. The same reason is why the government and many people will try to oppose it, because greater democracy is a threat to any power system. The reason why people…

I'm not sure if I'm reading your comment correctly. I totally agree we should aim towards educated and politically active society. However, educated bit should come first. Then we can start making it easier to participate. Tiering the barrier of coming to polling place won't educate people by itself.

How do you get those educated citizens when it's against the rulers interest?

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#240

Post by pdkl95 »

dspillett wrote: post #197
pdkl95 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's printed paper ballots, you have merely created a very expensive pencil. There isn't any benefit of using a computer+printer.

Unless the result is contested you have saved an amount of counting effort which could be a cost saving. Though I suspect it would take some time for the ROI of implementing such a system to work out positive.

> Unless the result is contested

By law a representative sample of sites are recounted by hand in about half of the states.

> you have saved an amount of counting effort

The ballots are already optically scanned.

> cost savings

A handful of pencils per-voting-booth is far cheaper than any computer+printer solution.

Post reply on HN