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Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

engineering.stanford.edu

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Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#141

Post by lb1lf »

andrewwhartion wrote: post #134
lb1lf wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect, buying plane tickets and voting are quite different processes; when buying a ticket, everybody has an interest in knowing WHO you are, being able to connect your ticket with your credit card and whatnot. When you vote, we're very interested in NOT being able to connect you with your vote - heck, in some countries it can even be dangerous if the powers that be find out what you voted. (The result…

> My preferred voting mechanism would be a hybrid This is the system advocated by Bruce Schneier[1], I wish it would get more traction. If it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me... [1] https://www.schneier.com/essays/archives/2004/07/voting_secu...

Wow. The bitter part is that I googled and found that I first suggested something like this in 2007, three years after Schneier. (It would have felt great to claim that 'Bruce Schneier later formed a similar opinion.')

Heck, it is even possible that I merely parroted Schneier's idea; I do read him on occasion, but not as often as I should!

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#142

Post by rlpb »

pi-squared wrote: post #111

Not convinced that in an age where I can buy a plane ticket for thousands of dollars, where we are thinking of sending people to Mars and I can securely communicate with people, in age where Edward Snowden is able to send private documents or whatev, and I have computers on my wrist, pocket and dick, I have to go to a physical place, stand in a queue and draw on a piece of paper to cast a ballot. I've been hearing th…

Give me a way to permit online voting but also be sure that the person who is voting was not coerced. I think you'll find that this is impossible.

At least with a polling booth, even if the voter is being coerced, it is difficult for the coercer to verify which way the voter voted. One might come up with ways to surveil the booth (whether in general or through the coerced voter), but at least we have a chance at detecting this.

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#143

Post by rlpb »

relix wrote: post #104
sgnelson wrote: post #45

The thing about online voting that has always gotten me is that it violates the ideals behind the "Australian Ballot." [0] ie, one should have the right to cast a secret ballot, and doing so in a public polling place at least theoretically guarantees this. With online elections, there is no proof or protection of this. For me that's the most important thing. Full Stop. Security implementations, hacking, etc. are all…

This is not an issue with online voting, and paper voting does not guarantee that right either. In Estonian e-voting, you can vote as many times as you want, only your last vote is counted. A week after online voting is closed, there is still a paper voting day, where you can go and override your online vote with a paper vote in the traditional booth. If you were coerced to vote a certain way online, you can still go…

You assume that a coerced voter has the freedom to go to the polling booth later to override a vote.

What about coerced voters who are the victim of domestic abuse[1][2]?

[1] http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/jun/02/uk.election2... [2] http://www.fahrenheit211.net/2015/12/04/oldham-was-it-the-be...

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#144

Post by lb1lf »

skrause wrote: post #130
lb1lf wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why the voting machine should print a paper receipt which in plain text tells what vote you cast; this receipt is then deposited in a ballot box. If a result is disputed, simply count the paper ballots like we do today.

And since you can't know that the computer actually recorded what was printed on your paper receipt you have to dispute the result by default if a good democratic process is important to you. So if you have to count the paper balloty anyway, why even bother with spending all that money for a voting machine?

There's at least two reasons, possibly even three:

a) Unless the outcome balances on a handful of votes, chances are noone will contest it. (If the result shows 47% to Party A, 32% to Party B and 21% to Party C, whereas polls showed 46% to Party A, 33% to Party B and 21% to Party C, chances are the result is fair.

That being said, yes - I think it would be good if just about anyone could contest the result and have a recount done - at least if they had to foot part of the bill, so that not every curmudgeon in the Kingdom would claim recounts just for the hell of it.

b) A voting machine system would enable one to have a preliminary result ready in seconds after ballot stations close, rather than today's system where, based on the size of electoral districts, results may be delayed by several days.

c) If properly designed, a voting machine could assist the user in creating a valid ballot; I've volunteered as an electoral clerk several times - we have had to dismiss surprisingly many ballots as there is simply no (approved) way to determine voter intent. A few checks before the vote is cast would likely improve matters.

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#145

Post by mantas »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #122
mantas wrote: post #75

I'm strongly against online voting. The problem #1 is buying and manipulation of votes. Security and/or anonymity is much smaller issue IMO. In my country, barely 50% of people vote. Most people don't care about politics. "Incentivized" votes is a huge issue there. People are routinely brought to polling stations and given a thank-you beer on return. Agitators are using all kind of borderline-blackmailing techniques…

Buying votes is orthogonal to online voting. One can buy offline votes as well. If anything, online voting system can let you "change your mind" later, robbing buyer of vote they paid for.

Sure votes are bought offline too. But it's much more difficult.

The people who sell votes don't care to "change their mind". They get their reward and they're happy with that. People who would bother to change their mind, don't sell their votes in the first place.

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#147

Post by tmat »

adwf wrote: post #12

The biggest problem with online/computerised voting is that it is a single point of attack for malicious actors. Even the best software security gets broken from time to time, online voting would allow zero-day attacks on elections - an absolute disaster. Whilst standard paper voting may also be subject to fraud, it takes the manipulation of thousands of people in order to alter ballots across a whole country. Comput…

blockchain tech solves your problems.

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#148

Post by guard-of-terra »

mantas wrote: post #145
guard-of-terra wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buying votes is orthogonal to online voting. One can buy offline votes as well. If anything, online voting system can let you "change your mind" later, robbing buyer of vote they paid for.

Sure votes are bought offline too. But it's much more difficult. The people who sell votes don't care to "change their mind". They get their reward and they're happy with that. People who would bother to change their mind, don't sell their votes in the first place.

Why would it be much more difficult?

The difference is "upload a photo of your ballot" versus "upload a screenshot of your vote".

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#149

Post by tmat »

ElijahLynn wrote: post #31
swalsh wrote: post #2

I have a way to make it better. I think combining old-fashioned checks and balances, with technology controls can make online voting about as secure as it is today (maybe more) and anonymous. To make it anonymous, its really just a password. When a user registers to vote, they create an online account. On the days that a user votes, they log into their account and create a ballot. They then create a password for the…

http://www.openvotingconsortium.org/our_solution Stops Secrecy in Vote Tabulation: OVC has a team of scientists ready to program computer software for voting machines and electoral tabulation that would be publicly owned or open source. Open source software could be checked by any party or group by hiring a capable computer programmer. Provides Paper Trail: The OVC recommended procedure for tabulating elections relie…

Recounts and Audits are only as good as those running the recount and audit.. See Chicago, Arizona, NYC, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc....

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#150

Post by pdkl95 »

lb1lf wrote: post #126
rmc wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the biggest problems with evoting machines is that the voter has no way to guarantee that the machine has correctly recorded their ballot.

Which is why the voting machine should print a paper receipt which in plain text tells what vote you cast; this receipt is then deposited in a ballot box. If a result is disputed, simply count the paper ballots like we do today.

If it's printed paper ballots, you have merely created a very expensive pencil. There isn't any benefit of using a computer+printer.
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