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IPad thoughts from Ben Fry (creator of Processing)

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Re: IPad thoughts from Ben Fry (creator of Processing)

#31

Post by rimantas »

cookiecaper wrote: post #5
alain wrote: post #3

The worst enemy of freedom in software is not Microsoft, it's Apple. You're pretty free to develop and distribute software as you want on Windows. On new Apple devices, they control the way the software is distributed, they tax you, they make you obey their rules. Imagine a world with appstore as the main way of distributing software for any kind of devices. This would be hell. This is where Apple is going. Stop usin…

Unfortunately I don't think these private individual political boycotts are very effective. If you want to stop Apple, you need to bring something clearly better to the market, and that thing needs to have the underlying structure necessary to reach Apple's core audience and tell them how much better the new thing is and why you don't need Apple's crap anymore.

  If you want to stop Apple, you need to bring something
  clearly better to the market,
Oh, please, someone crying how evil Apple is do that. I guess that's the only way for you to understand what real users want, what Apple does, and why it does it.

  is and why you don't need Apple's crap anymore.
I won't need "Apple's crap" when someone will finally get what usability and user experience means.

Re: IPad thoughts from Ben Fry (creator of Processing)

#32

Post by wisty »

bad_user wrote: post #24
rauljara wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is only true of the iPad/iPhone ecosystem. For OSX, they give away development tools better than the ones microsoft charges ridiculous amounts of money for. Almost all apple-made software (even the kind they sell) doesn't even make you enter a license key. If you are honestly worried about a closed app store coming to OSX based on what Apple does with phones and devices that they clearly think of as large phones…

Sorry, but having worked with both, Visual Studio is miles ahead of Xcode. I even did an app for a client in C++/Qt that wanted it running in OS X ... developed 100% in Visual Studio. That's because at the time (at least) Xcode wasn't even having Intellisense (and Visual C++ does have the best intellisense available). Visual Studio Express is free to use ... and it's enough for almost every need you might have. And b…

VS is the best IDE out there, hands down. I read a nice rant about how it causes brain damage (by Intellisense pushing you into bottom-up design), but it's great at what it does.

Re: IPad thoughts from Ben Fry (creator of Processing)

#33

Post by sjs »

bad_user wrote: post #24
rauljara wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is only true of the iPad/iPhone ecosystem. For OSX, they give away development tools better than the ones microsoft charges ridiculous amounts of money for. Almost all apple-made software (even the kind they sell) doesn't even make you enter a license key. If you are honestly worried about a closed app store coming to OSX based on what Apple does with phones and devices that they clearly think of as large phones…

Sorry, but having worked with both, Visual Studio is miles ahead of Xcode. I even did an app for a client in C++/Qt that wanted it running in OS X ... developed 100% in Visual Studio. That's because at the time (at least) Xcode wasn't even having Intellisense (and Visual C++ does have the best intellisense available). Visual Studio Express is free to use ... and it's enough for almost every need you might have. And b…

> Of course Mono for Apple would be an abomination that had to be destroyed (considering how they sued Psystar and even Wired on publishing an article about hackitoshes)

Cocoa is a direct descendent of NEXTStep which is an open spec. Hence the NS prefix on class names. Here's "Mono for Apple":

http://www.cocotron.org/

http://etoileos.com/

http://www.gnustep.org/

You mention MS "endorsing" Mono as if that means something.

Re: IPad thoughts from Ben Fry (creator of Processing)

#34

Post by sjs »

jlgosse wrote: post #30
rimantas wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sad to see so logically flawed argument getting upvoted—that means many of us don't bother to think any more and vote purely on "four legs good, two legs bad" mentality. The worst enemy of freedom in software is not Microsoft, it's Apple. Makes no sense. Neither MS nor Apple are enemies of freedom of software. Apple is using a lot of OSS, contributes a lot to several projects, pushes for open web. You're pretty free…

I'm pretty sure he means they tax developers at 30% of each sale, whereas you could just sell your shit independently and save yourself that 30%. Just say you sell an application for $4.99, this means Apple takes around $1.50. If you sell 100k copies, Apple is gouging you $150,000. Great, you don't really care because you made $350,000. Not so; You're going to lose a shitload of that to the IRS. In essence we're look…

I think it sucks too, but the truth is that without the app store you would have to pay a lot to match their billing system and exposure (top app lists, what's new, featured apps, etc). I mean, it's too easy to buy apps on the app store. Customers lined up hungry for apps with their CC on file ready to pay. Also you get to use their CDN. It makes it easy for the little guy to sell 100k apps on the same playing field as the big dev houses. That shouldn't be overlooked.

The downside to the 30% is that a chunk goes to the review process. It's nice when it catches legitimate bugs but sucks that in a way you're paying to be censored.

If you don't like it, you can always develop for another platform though. You might not make as much but if you value ideals over making money, you have options.

70% of 100k sales is better than 100% of 1000 sales.

Re: IPad thoughts from Ben Fry (creator of Processing)

#35

Post by ptomato »

jlgosse wrote: post #30
rimantas wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sad to see so logically flawed argument getting upvoted—that means many of us don't bother to think any more and vote purely on "four legs good, two legs bad" mentality. The worst enemy of freedom in software is not Microsoft, it's Apple. Makes no sense. Neither MS nor Apple are enemies of freedom of software. Apple is using a lot of OSS, contributes a lot to several projects, pushes for open web. You're pretty free…

I'm pretty sure he means they tax developers at 30% of each sale, whereas you could just sell your shit independently and save yourself that 30%. Just say you sell an application for $4.99, this means Apple takes around $1.50. If you sell 100k copies, Apple is gouging you $150,000. Great, you don't really care because you made $350,000. Not so; You're going to lose a shitload of that to the IRS. In essence we're look…

Considering that the app store is barely profitable, even with that 30% currently, you can hardly call it "gouging". And hey, if you don't like it, umm. Don't develop for the iP[hone/ad].

Re: IPad thoughts from Ben Fry (creator of Processing)

#36

Post by protomyth »

jlgosse wrote: post #30
rimantas wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sad to see so logically flawed argument getting upvoted—that means many of us don't bother to think any more and vote purely on "four legs good, two legs bad" mentality. The worst enemy of freedom in software is not Microsoft, it's Apple. Makes no sense. Neither MS nor Apple are enemies of freedom of software. Apple is using a lot of OSS, contributes a lot to several projects, pushes for open web. You're pretty free…

I'm pretty sure he means they tax developers at 30% of each sale, whereas you could just sell your shit independently and save yourself that 30%. Just say you sell an application for $4.99, this means Apple takes around $1.50. If you sell 100k copies, Apple is gouging you $150,000. Great, you don't really care because you made $350,000. Not so; You're going to lose a shitload of that to the IRS. In essence we're look…

The 30% is a value proposition you can take or leave (develop somewhere else). I like it since I don't have to pay bandwidth or credit card processing fees. Ignoring bandwidth, it isn't that different from going through other credit card processors or PayPal.

As to taxes, I only get taxed on the portion I receive (Apple gets taxed on their 30%) so I have no idea where this "double-taxed" stuff is coming from.

Heck, if my app is really good, I might get on the front page of iTunes or in a commercial.

Re: IPad thoughts from Ben Fry (creator of Processing)

#37

Post by cpr »

His thoughts make a lot of sense, but I really wonder if he's not missing the forest for the trees, like a lot of writers on this subject.

It's not the little hacks (e.g., font organizers, window minimizers) that are going to make or break this platform: it's going to be the immersive apps that capture people's imaginations. (And most "real people" don't care about OS hacks.)

I know I've already got way too many killer ideas for this platform, really the first to incorporate touch computing in an intelligent, affordable fashion, and I suspect many others are in the same boat.

So the lack of hackability may simply not be an issue. Within a given app, the world's your oyster; you can do just about anything.

The gatekeeping problem may be the bigger issue, but there are so many great apps waiting to be built that are completely non-controversial from Apple's point of view, and that will fulfill the promise of the platform.

The recent sweep-up of semi-porn and cookie-cutter apps makes complete sense to me; as a retailer, who wants all that crap on their shelves? And as a developer, why would I want to be doing anything in those areas (unless it's simply to exploit people for their money)?

I do have some areas of concern that affect my plans: Will Apple ever permit a full-blown non-Safari browser app in the store? That's a biggie. And will Apple ever permit an interactive programming tool like Smalltalk adapted for the touch screen, or (one of my ideas) a graphical meta-calculator building tool that ultimately allows the user to do "real" programming?

Ultimately, I think the answers are yes and yes, but the unsureness of those answers is troubling.

Re: IPad thoughts from Ben Fry (creator of Processing)

#38

Post by pvg »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #27
pvg wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The control that Apple has over the iPhone and the application distribution channel does contribute greatly to the iPhone's success. Does it really? The iPhone was hugely successful well before there was an App Store.

Yeah, you couldn't install any applications on the device, which is the ultimate control. You can easily argue that the device is much more open now that developers are able to create the 150,000 apps that have been downloaded more than 3 billion times.

You still can't install any application on the device. You could easily argue a lot of things but what on earth are you talking about, as far as the initial success of the iPhone is concerned?

Re: IPad thoughts from Ben Fry (creator of Processing)

#39

Post by stcredzero »

alain wrote: post #3

The worst enemy of freedom in software is not Microsoft, it's Apple. You're pretty free to develop and distribute software as you want on Windows. On new Apple devices, they control the way the software is distributed, they tax you, they make you obey their rules. Imagine a world with appstore as the main way of distributing software for any kind of devices. This would be hell. This is where Apple is going. Stop usin…

Imagine a world with appstore as the main way of distributing software for any kind of devices.

I think such a world would be much better for most end users. And a lot of people have already voted with their wallet that this is so.

If there were many App Stores, then market forces would come into play. Someone would figure out how to get developers paid without mistreating them. Then really smart devs would start flocking to the other App Store, forcing Apple to reform or lose mindshare.

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