Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The U.S. has ‘worst elections of any long-established democracy,’ report finds

washingtonpost.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 87 posts

Re: The U.S. has ‘worst elections of any long-established democracy,’ report finds

#61

Post by aaron-lebo »

pessimizer wrote: post #51
aaron-lebo wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yeah, seeing as how it's my opinion. I don't know what other scale I should follow...I certainly don't expect you to follow mine, but it doesn't mean we can't discuss them. Sanders' actions may not put him in the same category as Clinton and Trump, but corruption can only exist within a system where decent people are either not competent at fighting them or...not that different themselves. I'm not asking for mu…

> Sanders' actions may not put him in the same category as Clinton and Trump I'm pretty sure that's all I said. Please stop insisting that I defend Sanders' policies, or assuming that I support him. A major problem with spectator politics is listening to people only to the extent that it takes to place them in or out of the tribe, and then responding in a reflexive way.

To be fair, you did say:

> Criticism of Sanders seems to be limited to his existence and his belief in his own positions.

...which seems unfair to anyone who might criticize him on any other grounds.

> A major problem with spectator politics is listening to people only to the extent that it takes to place them in or out of the tribe, and then responding in a reflexive way.

We are in agreement then.

Re: The U.S. has ‘worst elections of any long-established democracy,’ report finds

#62

Post by H0n3sty »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #2

People aren't willing to make their politicians accountable. It's always the other person's fault, the other side's extremes; never their own. You've got Clinton running an email server exposed to the world as secretary of state, ignoring warnings about it and then lying about it. Yet she will probably end up getting elected because it's all a "Republican conspiracy". Meanwhile, Trump is calling a judge's ruling into…

Re Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick's post:

"Regarding this morning's scripture posting on social media, be assured that the post was not done in response to last night's tragedy," the statement said. "The post was designed and scheduled last Thursday...We regret the unfortunate timing of these posts and ask everyone to join us in praying for the people of Orlando in this awful time."

http://www.people.com/article/texas-dan-patrick-tweets-bible...

Re: The U.S. has ‘worst elections of any long-established democracy,’ report finds

#64

Post by mindcrime »

pessimizer wrote: post #37
RyanMcGreal wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then there's Bernie who refuses to aknowledge any extremes of socialism. One of these criticisms is not like the others. Sanders is a moderate democratic socialist - in any other industrialized country, he'd be considered mildly left of centre. Let's not equate his slightly out-of-step politics with the actual abuses and mendacities of the other candidates.

If you can't find something bad to say about everyone, it ruins the rhythm of the "plague on both your houses" argument. I read an editorial the other day about how the three remaining presidential candidates were disrespecting the voting public; Trump was cited for saying racist things, but insisting that they weren't racist, Clinton cited for saying things about her email server that contradicted what the State Dep…

I read an editorial the other day about how the three remaining presidential candidates were disrespecting the voting public; Trump was cited for saying racist things, but insisting that they weren't racist, Clinton cited for saying things about her email server that contradicted what the State Department had found, and Sanders cited for insisting that he could possibly be the President.

And here's a part of the problem... those aren't the "three remaining presidential candidates". At the very least any discussion of the presidential election should include Gary Johnson, who is the only other candidate who will be, if I understand correctly, on the ballot in all 50 states. Not to mention he's a very popular former governor, whose running mate is also a popular former governor.

OK, look, I understand that Duverger's Law[1] says that our system will tend to favor a "two party system". But there isn't an ironclad law like, say, gravity, in play here. Third party candidates can and do win elections, and excluding them from the conversation just helps perpetuate the existing system.

Unfortunately, in most years, the media seem to try very hard to pointedly ignore/downplay third party candidates. This year is the first I can remember where the LP candidate is getting some serious, mostly non-biased, reasonable media coverage.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law

Re: The U.S. has ‘worst elections of any long-established democracy,’ report finds

#65

Post by Brandanna »

douche wrote: post #39
mikeash wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Clinton wins, it won't be because her email stuff is dismissed as a conspiracy, it will be because we only have two choices and the other one is vastly worse. (Don't try to tell me about other choices. Third party candidates are the frictionless pulleys of American politics.)

If I have to listen to her speak for four years on the nightly news, I might bail and move to Canada. My ears can't take that kind of prolonged shrieking.

Trudeau is a lot better than Clinton, but you're going to be in for a shock if you're a conservative in Canada. This place is pure socialism.

Re: The U.S. has ‘worst elections of any long-established democracy,’ report finds

#66

Post by bpodgursky »

aylons wrote: post #58
bpodgursky wrote: post #36

The US is also the longest established continuously democratic government... so clearly there is also something going right, historically at least. Ranking Brazilian government above the US is a joke.

This is not a government rank, it is an elections ranking. From your comment history, I can see you have an axe to grind in Brazilian politics. Please keep it to relevant discussions.

It's from the first sentence of the article. Brazil is fair game.

Re: The U.S. has ‘worst elections of any long-established democracy,’ report finds

#67

Post by camel_Snake »

mindcrime wrote: post #64
pessimizer wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can't find something bad to say about everyone, it ruins the rhythm of the "plague on both your houses" argument. I read an editorial the other day about how the three remaining presidential candidates were disrespecting the voting public; Trump was cited for saying racist things, but insisting that they weren't racist, Clinton cited for saying things about her email server that contradicted what the State Dep…

I read an editorial the other day about how the three remaining presidential candidates were disrespecting the voting public; Trump was cited for saying racist things, but insisting that they weren't racist, Clinton cited for saying things about her email server that contradicted what the State Department had found, and Sanders cited for insisting that he could possibly be the President. And here's a part of the prob…

I feel like the Twelfth Amendment hampers this. I don't know anyone that wants the House to choose the next president. I can't even imagine what a fiasco that would be.

"If no candidate for President has a majority of the total votes, the House of Representatives, voting by states and with the same quorum requirements as under the original procedure, chooses the President. The Twelfth Amendment requires the House to choose from the three highest receivers of electoral votes, compared to five under the original procedure. "[0]

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth_Amendment_to_the_Unite...

Re: The U.S. has ‘worst elections of any long-established democracy,’ report finds

#68

Post by Houshalter »

mikeash wrote: post #30
aaron-lebo wrote: post #2

People aren't willing to make their politicians accountable. It's always the other person's fault, the other side's extremes; never their own. You've got Clinton running an email server exposed to the world as secretary of state, ignoring warnings about it and then lying about it. Yet she will probably end up getting elected because it's all a "Republican conspiracy". Meanwhile, Trump is calling a judge's ruling into…

If Clinton wins, it won't be because her email stuff is dismissed as a conspiracy, it will be because we only have two choices and the other one is vastly worse. (Don't try to tell me about other choices. Third party candidates are the frictionless pulleys of American politics.)

Unless you live in a swing state you can totally vote third party without cost. Even if you do, it's unlikely your vote will be the tiebreaker. Don't feel compelled to vote for someone you don't believe in. It's not like your vote matters!

Re: The U.S. has ‘worst elections of any long-established democracy,’ report finds

#69

Post by NautilusWave »

The US is not a democracy, it wasn't even founded as a democracy. You'll find pockets of it in certain state and local governments, but the US is a federal republic. Given the historical restrictions on who could vote and participate in government and more modern corporate influence, it's always been an oligarchy in practice. This is probably a problem intrinsic to the lack of democracy on a federal level.

Re: The U.S. has ‘worst elections of any long-established democracy,’ report finds

#70

Post by Houshalter »

evan_ wrote: post #55
Grishnakh wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Are we like gun manufacturers who can simply say "it's not our fault that our tools are used for evil?" It's not their fault. You'd have to be an idiot to now understand what guns are for: they're weapons designed to kill people efficiently. They can be used for good or evil, just like cars. Some guy in a pickup just murdered 5 bicyclists in Michigan; should we ban pickups because of this? The whole thing about suin…

In a vacuum I would agree with you that simply manufacturing guns does not in itself lead to gun violence. The person buying the gun is ultimately responsible for its use. However, gun manufacturers don't operate in a vacuum. Gun manufacturers, through marketing and sponsorships, have intentionally worked to create a culture where people feel that they need to have a gun to feel safe. The NRA, working in concert with…

You can't sue someone for speaking or advertising ideas you don't agree with. The NRA could start printing copies of Mein Kampf and cause the rise of a new Nazi movement, and I'd still defend their right to free speech.

I also don't agree with your assumption that conservatives and readers of gun magazines are responsible for most of the homicide rate. If you banned gun magazines and blogs or whatever you think is responsible, I doubt gun ownership would go down. And even if it did, I doubt the homicide rate would go down due to it. Gun collectors are not more likely to be involved in crime.

I believe that if you control for drug violence and poverty and other factors, the US homicide rate isn't that much worse than countries with gun control. And gun manufacturers certainly aren't responsible for those things.

Post reply on HN