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Why not string theory? Because enough is enough

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Re: Why not string theory? Because enough is enough

#11
post #3

I've got a theory that string theory is more of a sociological phenomena than real science. It started as a genuine attempt to model how the nucleus was held together and then continued because it's a good area to do maths and write papers rather than because it models reality. One thing I don't get, which may be down to my own stupidity - take maybe the simplest interaction in physics - you have two electrons in spa…

I've got a theory that string theory is more of a sociological phenomena than real science.

I've got to say, that comes across as awfully dismissive toward a whole lot of very thoughtful people. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by it. Certainly all of the string theorists I've known (it's my profession) have talked as if they believed their work was involved in a "genuine attempt" to model reality.

Maybe a physicist can make a living by just "doing math and writing papers" without any expectation of making meaningful progress toward understanding the world, but the people who really drive the field and get noticed are almost invariably folks who dream of changing the world, of being the next Hawking or Witten or even the next Einstein. If someone like that doesn't have the a pretty solid hope that what they're working on is likely to be truly relevant to reality, they work on something else.

I think that others have already more or less answered your electron question. I might answer it this way: one of the great triumphs of 20th century physics was the realization that the details of how physics works on very small scales (or equivalently, very high energies) get very predictably "blurred out" when phenomena are measured at longer scales (or lower energies). The formal process involved is called "renormalization", and the punchline here is that essentially any ultimate theory of nature (whether that's string theory or something else) will reduce to an ordinary quantum field theory (with "renormalizable" fields) once you get a few orders of magnitude below its intrinsic scale.

That means in particular that any "stringy" physics (or any "loopy" physics, or even any simpler "grand unification" physics) will inescapably be completely washed out and undetectable when electrons interact from a few cm apart. All you need to understand is "simple" quantum electrodynamics, in which the two electrons exert a repulsive force on each other by way of their interactions with the surrounding electromagnetic field: interactions that can be described as being mediated by exchange of virtual photons as force-carrying particles.

For that calculation, it's not at all important to know that (e.g.) each electron is an extremely tiny string in a specific vibration mode, nor that they (more or less) emit and absorb virtual photons by pinching off into new tiny strings or in a different specific vibration mode and then joining back up with them in a uniquely determined way. (This would be a good place for me to note that nobody knows exactly which scenario in string theory would correspond to our world, so nobody actually knows exactly what vibration mode corresponds to an electron. But we know a lot of ways in which things like that might work.) My point here is just that most of the questions you've asked are really quantum field theory questions: the string theory connection is almost entirely unimportant in that regime.

Re: Why not string theory? Because enough is enough

#12
post #7
post #3

I've got a theory that string theory is more of a sociological phenomena than real science. It started as a genuine attempt to model how the nucleus was held together and then continued because it's a good area to do maths and write papers rather than because it models reality. One thing I don't get, which may be down to my own stupidity - take maybe the simplest interaction in physics - you have two electrons in spa…

> you have two electrons in space a few cm apart and the accelerate away from each other due to the charges repelling. I'm not sure how that is supposed to happen if everything is strings. At the level of quantum theory, you don't have charges repelling. You have charged particles, like electrons, exchanging other particles--photons in the case of the electromagnetic force. So really it's all particles (or all quantu…

Do photons quantize and transmit the electric force? Are charged particles constantly sending a continuous stream of photons out in all directions?

I'm genuinely curious and haven't had luck finding this with Google - neither sites that confirm this, nor those that deny it.

Edit: /s/magnetic/electric

Re: Why not string theory? Because enough is enough

#13

"[A]cademia is currently organized so that it invites communal reinforcement, prevents researchers from leaving fields whose promise is dwindling, and supports a rich-get-richer trend." A really awesome quote there. (Perhaps a bit self-serving for me).

    (Perhaps a bit self-serving for me).
So you think she's biased in pointing out that academia has systemic biases?

Re: Why not string theory? Because enough is enough

#14
post #3

I've got a theory that string theory is more of a sociological phenomena than real science. It started as a genuine attempt to model how the nucleus was held together and then continued because it's a good area to do maths and write papers rather than because it models reality. One thing I don't get, which may be down to my own stupidity - take maybe the simplest interaction in physics - you have two electrons in spa…

It's a fundamental mistake to assume that these are "real" strings being talked about.

String theory is about the idea that reality is best modeled as, notionally, strings - i.e. the mathematics looks a bit like them if you sort of squint and look at it really hard.

But there's a really good reason strings are a compelling here: because near as we can tell, vibrational frequency is really important to particle physics - the energy of a photon is quantized as E=nhf , (Energy = integer * planck's constant * frequency). And this seems to scale all the way down - it works for photons, it works for electron orbitals, and it comes into play dealing with the virtual particles which are exchanged in force interactions.

So however you describe reality, whatever you do, your abstraction pretty assuredly needs to somehow recover the vibrational importance, which implies certain kinds of "geometry". You get "strings" because strings are one of the most fundamental structures which can hold a vibrational mode, and importantly, they kind of neatly explain the quantization as standing waves - closed strings can only setup a standing wave at certain frequencies depending on their length, same with open strings (the wave needs to be zero at the ends of the "string" or it'll lose energy).

Of course this is all my very ad hoc handwavey explanation of it, but the point is, there's a lot of very basic physics which works quite well in the model. It did not, and does not, just come from nowhere even at this very high level.

Re: Why not string theory? Because enough is enough

#15
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you have two electrons in space a few cm apart and the accelerate away from each other due to the charges repelling. I'm not sure how that is supposed to happen if everything is strings. At the level of quantum theory, you don't have charges repelling. You have charged particles, like electrons, exchanging other particles--photons in the case of the electromagnetic force. So really it's all particles (or all quantu…

Do photons quantize and transmit the electric force? Are charged particles constantly sending a continuous stream of photons out in all directions? I'm genuinely curious and haven't had luck finding this with Google - neither sites that confirm this, nor those that deny it. Edit: /s/magnetic/electric

> Do photons quantize and transmit the magnetic force?

The magnetic force is just an aspect of the electromagnetic force ("interaction" is the word more commonly used in quantum field theory), so yes.

> Are charged particles constantly sending a continuous stream of photons out in all directions?

Virtual photons, yes; they aren't observed directly, only their effects--what we see as the electromagnetic interaction between charged objects--are observed. At least, that's one way of (heuristically) looking at what is happening. This way of looking at it has limitations, but it can be helpful.

Re: Why not string theory? Because enough is enough

#16
The author says that he "became more convinced [string theorists] are merely building a mathematical toy universe." The explanation for his conclusion was that they kept revising string theory in order to fit observations. I know little of string theory, so I am probably misreading his meaning, but isn't that how all science works? Create a model, then revise it when you get more data.

Re: Why not string theory? Because enough is enough

#17

The author says that he "became more convinced [string theorists] are merely building a mathematical toy universe." The explanation for his conclusion was that they kept revising string theory in order to fit observations. I know little of string theory, so I am probably misreading his meaning, but isn't that how all science works? Create a model, then revise it when you get more data.

True, of course. But at some indeterminate point theories start seeming awfully ad-hoc even if they still retain other properties.

Let's say I propose that no existing solar panel designs respond to artificial light. Easily falsifiable. Say you perform the experiment and find that panels from First Solar do respond to artificial light. I refine my hypothesis to "no existing solar panel designs respond to artificial light except for First Solar". You find that SunEdison panels do, by testing at your lab in SF. I refine my hypothesis to "no existing solar panel designs respond to artificial light when tested outside San Francisco except for First Solar". You repeat the experiment in San Jose, and I refine my hypothesis again.

We're revising the model, keeping it falsifiable, and keeping it consistent with existing evidence. It would not be without merit to claim that this is something of a toy hypothesis, however, and that our time would be better served otherwise.

Re: Why not string theory? Because enough is enough

#18

The author says that he "became more convinced [string theorists] are merely building a mathematical toy universe." The explanation for his conclusion was that they kept revising string theory in order to fit observations. I know little of string theory, so I am probably misreading his meaning, but isn't that how all science works? Create a model, then revise it when you get more data.

It's called adding epicycles : http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Adding_epicycles

Re: Why not string theory? Because enough is enough

#19
post #11
post #3

I've got a theory that string theory is more of a sociological phenomena than real science. It started as a genuine attempt to model how the nucleus was held together and then continued because it's a good area to do maths and write papers rather than because it models reality. One thing I don't get, which may be down to my own stupidity - take maybe the simplest interaction in physics - you have two electrons in spa…

I've got a theory that string theory is more of a sociological phenomena than real science. I've got to say, that comes across as awfully dismissive toward a whole lot of very thoughtful people. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by it. Certainly all of the string theorists I've known (it's my profession) have talked as if they believed their work was involved in a "genuine attempt" to model reality. Maybe a physici…

And that, to put it succinctly, is the problem. In the pursuit of a Theory of Everything, you wind up with a Theory of Anything. If there's no particular reason why things are the way they are in this universe, then you're reduced to the simpler observationally-verifiable model anyway since the elegant overarching framework is essentially useless. It becomes a philosophy of the ought rather than a description of the is. A theory that predicts everything predicts nothing.

Re: Why not string theory? Because enough is enough

#20
post #9
post #3

I've got a theory that string theory is more of a sociological phenomena than real science. It started as a genuine attempt to model how the nucleus was held together and then continued because it's a good area to do maths and write papers rather than because it models reality. One thing I don't get, which may be down to my own stupidity - take maybe the simplest interaction in physics - you have two electrons in spa…

Particles themselves are just models of localized field quantizations. It's a bit analogous to how a person is just a quantification of the molecules they comprise. You can gain and lose new molecules by the millions, but you're still the same person -- like the crest of a wave. Anyway, particles repel because that is the nature of the fields they exist in. Electrons don't have to do anything 'to' each other to repel…

Quantification or quantization? (Autocorrect?)
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