A deportation at the UK border • Hacker News Board

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#171

Post by Aelinsaar » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 5:44 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #128

2skep wrote: post #111

Enough has been said about bad treatment by border guards about every country on earth so don't need to repeat it but I had the following exchange with a Canadian visa officer. Visa Officer:Your Name? How can I help you Me: Dr XYZ. I would like to apply for a visitor visa to Canada Visa Officer: Why would you like to go to Canada Me: I have been invited to speak at a conference Visa Officer: Hmm I see. Me: Is there a…

As a rule answers have to be as general as possible. The more specific information you give them voluntarily, the more they can find something to latch on and make your life miserable. Leave it up to them to ask more details. I wasn't a speaker at my last conference, but I could have been. But my conversation at the border was something like: "Why are you visiting Canada?" / "To go to a conference" / "Where is the co…

The only problem is that while this is fantastic advice, it just means that the people who are going to be abused in the systems are the ones who haven't gotten the message, or otherwise struggle to implement it.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#172

Post by germanier » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 5:45 PM UTC

davb wrote: post #114

I'm Scottish, and I absolutely detest traveling through Heathrow. The security and border controls there are some of the most oppressive I've ever encountered. Depending on where you're flying, that could include multiple baggage searches and multiple biometric photos (flying OUT of the UK, I counted three - security, a secondary queue before entering the terminal concourse, and at the gate). Questioning why you're b…

The Israeli government swears by this method. Given the high threat-level and low incident rate one shouldn't say it's ineffective. Honestly, I would rather have such a method than the almost useless security theatre we face at every airport.

(After clicking the link I noticed that it's actually founded by former Israeli intelligence workers.)

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#173

Post by Aelinsaar » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 5:46 PM UTC

rossng wrote: post #4

I am not happy about the continued existence of what are essentially rights-free zones at border crossings. Unfortunately, with the current political climate in the UK, I'm not sure the majority of my fellow countrymen would agree. And I'm certain Theresa May doesn't care. It's easy for politicians to ignore these problems, as they will almost never affect their own citizens. A similar situation exists with the NSA a…

We don't seem to stop and think that if everyone is freely abusing everyone else, that's not an ideal situation. While it's impossible to eliminate a lot of these systemic ills, I feel like the general response is sort of, "We can't fix it all at once, perfectly, so lets pretend that it doesn't exist."

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#174

Post by Aelinsaar » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 5:47 PM UTC

petercooper wrote: post #8

There is no VISA you can get to receive an honorarium for speaking in the UK Potential international speakers should also be warned this is also true of the US - except for certain types of academic institution (INA 212(q)). The UK also allows it via https://www.gov.uk/permitted-paid-engagement-visa but again, only for arts or academia. A commercial conference doesn't count, annoyingly (or even a community conference…

The real takeaway of course, is that since this is theater, you must know your lines. If you don't, the whole thing stalls and you run the risk of being thrown into the gears.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#175

Post by tobltobs » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 5:47 PM UTC

vinceguidry wrote: post #134

tobltobs wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what would your "advise" be if she would get into trouble for lying to a custom officer? I guess something like "Just don't lie".

In order you to get in trouble for lying then they have to catch you in a lie. The easiest way for them to do that is for them to get you to admit to lying. This is why it's so important for you to give short, non-committal answers to their questions that reveal nothing, and to never let your guard down, because customs officials (any kind of security personnel, really) are not your friends.

To be sure that they couldn't catch her lying, she would have to avoid to take anything with her which could give a hint for her real purpose of visit. Also she should avoid that her name is for example on the speaker list. Also she should have a complete faked travel plan for her touristic visit, including hotel bookings.

Does this sound realistic?

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#176

Post by proactivesvcs » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 5:48 PM UTC

gsnedders wrote: post #126

tptacek wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, border crossings have been like this since long before the PATRIOT act. Computer scientists were turned away at the borders trying to fly in to give Black Hat talks; I worked for a Canadian company and had strict instructions to tell the Canadian border people I was traveling to see friends, and so on. This has nothing to do with terrorism. It has to do with visa classifications, and the skittishness of countries…

Also: as a reminder, the UK has long been concerned about people smuggling arms and the like for the sake of terrorism: the majority of arms used by the IRA originated in the US for decades before 9/11 (after which the US supply largely dried up, as did US funding of such terrorist groups).

Our government and arms businesses are happy for the guns to leave the UK, though.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#177

Post by proactivesvcs » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 5:50 PM UTC

michaelbuckbee wrote: post #41

Stepping slightly back from this particular horrible experience, I don't understand _why_ this particular set of institutional rules are in place. Was there a thought that foreign speakers who were subsidized by foreign governments were inciting rebellion? Are there tax issues? Was this some big money laundering loophole or something? Is there a concern that people were using this as figleaf to immigrate illegally?

The rules are in place because of the deeply-ingrained xenophobia gripping the UK. Trying to find logical reason behind the rules won't get you anywhere!

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#178

Post by paulsutter » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 5:50 PM UTC

This is a great article on how /not/ to talk to immigration officials, anywhere. I don't defend any heavy-handed attitude of the officers. It's just useful to understand the purpose behind the process.

> the young immigrations officer at LHR was very inquisitive about this old friend I was going to meet while I was in London for a conference: Who was he? Where did he live? What was our relationship? My awkward answers and copious fear sweating must have been unsatisfactory,...

The officer is trying to determine whether she is coming for a brief visit, or secretly planning to stay for a long time. That's their primary purpose in life. Expect these questions, and give the answers matter-of-factly.

> I just wanted to tell him what he wanted. But somehow that wasn’t enough. He tried to play games to prove something, but I didn’t seem to play along the way he hoped

It's an interrogation. Which is exactly like a game. It's their job. The secret trick is to tell the truth.

> I told him point blank: there is nothing I can tell you to make you happy. I have to be very careful what information I volunteer, because if I talk too much, you get angry. And now if I don’t talk enough, you get angry.

Translation, "I have something to hide and I just want to manipulate you". He doesn't want to hear what makes him happy, he wants to hear the facts. After this they really had no choice but to send her back, even if they were leaning the other way.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#179

Post by Manishearth » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 5:50 PM UTC

ali-maki wrote: post #131

Keep in mind, this was a white American detained for some arbitrary visa restrictions which is a rarity. Middle Eastern individuals are very frequently put in the 'corral of shame' for reasons unbeknownst to them. I can't recall how many times I've been randomly searched, or have had officers keep an eye on me. I've also occasionally put through interrogations by irate border patrol over the mundane minutiae of my tr…

A lot of times the corral of shame contains old helpless people too, who seem to have been deliberately put there for the pleasure of the corral ranchers.

I and my family were traveling back home to Boston. Coincidentally, the Indian grandparents of close friends of ours were on the same flight to visit said friends. Like most old Indian ladies, the grandma was wearing traditional clothes (nothing fancy). They didn't speak much English.

They were detained at Logan. Fortunately, my mother (a US citizen) was allowed to be with them as a translator. They had them sit in this room for a long time, after which they asked arbitrary and silly questions.

That room was full of other old, non-white people wearing non-American clothing or "religious symbols" (e.g.a turban). Many didn't speak the language. Most were scared and confused. It was pretty clear that the officers just wanted to harass people.

If my mother hadn't been there the grandparents would have had a much more gruelling experience and would have probably been stuck there for a while.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#180

Post by shimon » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 5:51 PM UTC

TheAnimus wrote: post #125

rdtsc wrote: post #122

> “Never tell them you’re coming for anything but tourism.” > When I was finally able to talk to my husband again, one of the very first things he told me was, “Don’t blame yourself for being truthful.” Very true. Your response goes into a "bin" (or a checkmark on a form). There are only so many bins there. One for terrorists, one for migrant workers, one for tourists. Self employed web developers, who are paid by a…

It's also about having very correct details in this case. If she had bothered to apply for the correct VISA there wouldn't have been an issue, but they clearly feel they are a special little snowflake because animation API is more important than a standardised work VISA system. I'm sorry but I strongly disagree with your assertion. Honesty and preparation IS the best policy. Imagine if I'd lied when I was detained in…

This seems excessively harsh. I didn't see the author say anything about expecting special treatment or rejecting the value of a standardized work visa system. As far as I can tell, she made a number of reasonable assumptions that someone not familiar with the details of UK travel law might make.

Secondly, her intent was to do something beneficial in the country. Whatever your views on on web animation, she was part of an event that brought visitors, economic activity, and tax revenues to the country. Conceivably, the border control agency could have satisfied their rules and not denied their country the benefits of her visit -- by simply charging her a fee for last-minute changes to her visa terms. That would serve as a lesson and deterrent, without subjecting a person who didn't have any malicious intent to a long detention.

And don't kid yourself about lying. Lying here doesn't mean "would a fair court judge your statements as true", it means "did the particular agent who interviewed you think you might be lying". There is tremendous discretion for the officers involved, and they get it wrong sometimes. If you think that never happens, you'll support naive systems that have pretty high rates of injustice.