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Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

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Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#501

Post by harryh »

facetube wrote: post #496
harryh wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The burden of proof in civil asset forfeiture trials (and there is a trial) is still on the plaintiff. It is not on the victim.

False, at least in the US. The government's case is considered to be against the property, not against you. The standard of legal proof is a preponderance of evidence, not beyond a reasonable doubt. "Assets [are only] returned if [the] owner proves [his/her] innocence". See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United... for details.

"preponderance of evidence" is still a burden on the plaintiff. It's just a lower standard than "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#502

Post by CamperBob2 »

harryh wrote: post #489
CamperBob2 wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a process, but it's not "due" to anything but avarice and corruption.

It's actually due to the well established legal procedures of our country.

I'm no Con Law scholar, but where exactly do you find a basis for United States v. $124,700 in U.S. Currency in either the writings or expressed intentions of our founders?

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#503

Post by retro64 »

gohrt wrote: post #439
facetube wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope it doesn't come to this. IMO the people cheering on Trump as a way of "getting the nightmare out of the way and moving on" need to study and understand the human cost incurred the last time that happened.

One pillar of the traditional Republican support for Israel is the Christian effort to usher in the apocalyptic war that will bring forth the second coming of Jesus Christ.

...? Not sure if you are being sarcastic, but nowhere in Christian Bible does it teach that somehow the human race can either "usher in" or prevent the end times.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#504

Post by Delmania »

orbitingpluto wrote: post #400
tamana wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's not to understand? Money is money, it spends just as well regardless of who gave it to you.

These cards are predatory because they have fees to withdraw, fees to not have the card expire and your money go poof, and even fees to even check your balance. Some states have enacted laws (Illinois is one I believe) that prohibits employers using these cards if the employee does not wish to use one. Employers use these cards because the debit card providers are willing to take on the cost of payroll for the privil…

From your previous post:

> Yet these cards are what is being targeted, because only the poor use them.

Same reason as this:

>Employers use these cards because the debit card providers are willing to take on the cost of payroll for the privilege of gouging the employees in fees.

The poor do not have the ability to fight back, and their employers have the resources to make sure the gov't does not shut these things down and require proper paychecks. Never underestimate the rich's ability to exploit the poor.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#505

Post by jboles »

gohrt wrote: post #438
hackaflocka wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree 100%. Still, one group (single moms) is generally despised by them, and the other is favored.

The politically-correct sympathetic "single mom" is referring to widows and abandoned women, not a pregnant single woman.

Exactly. Republicans do not have a problem with single women per se, only unchecked promiscuity out of wedlock.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#506

Post by jMyles »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #383
jMyles wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've said it before and I'll say it again: prevent this kind of garbage from happing without consequence by mandating docked wages/pension benefits to pay for all or part of lawsuit damages. Change the incentives and people will change themselves. I'm less certain. It seems to me that this will only push the incentive further up the chain, such that the system refuses to ever find wrongdoing or even allow lawsuits…

Yeah ancient Rome did this and they still can't get rid of the Camorra (mafia)

Yeah, I don't think that this solution has been viable at any point until now, but the proliferation of cameras and ease of transmission of video might be a game-changer.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#507

Post by facetube »

harryh wrote: post #501
facetube wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False, at least in the US. The government's case is considered to be against the property, not against you. The standard of legal proof is a preponderance of evidence, not beyond a reasonable doubt. "Assets [are only] returned if [the] owner proves [his/her] innocence". See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United... for details.

"preponderance of evidence" is still a burden on the plaintiff. It's just a lower standard than "beyond a reasonable doubt".

In practice in the United States it's been shown to present little to no burden. These cases have been widely covered in the press. Again, see the link.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#509

Post by meric »

tn13 wrote: post #341
honua wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These problems are not a creation of police. These are created by good people like us who do not empathize with criminals, minorities and other groups which by default consider "less human". I agree that the problem is considering others as "less human" but I wouldn't exclude the police from that!

I understand your sentiment. But I think as a society we have allowed the legal system to evolve in a way that only Bullies will become and thrive as cops and narcissist jerks will become public prosecutors. They are problem but they are more of a side-effect of we not standing up for other people's liberty.

Some of us think there are good people, who have rights, and bad people, who deserve to have rights taken from them.

Some of us think there are people with power we need to impress and then there are people without power we can take from them whatever we want.

Some of us think we are all human beings and everyone deserves to be a part of society, to be seen as human beings with human wants, needs and human emotions, even when they do things that harm other people. And whether they even do that, is not for us to judge.

The first group needed people who were willing to take things from the bad guys, and picked the second group as police and prosecutors.

That's how we're in this situation today.

Your child ask you if they can go to your donald-trump-loving-women-should-stay-in-kitchen neighbour's house to play with friends. Do you:

1. Change your child's school so they don't mix with the 'wrong sort'. You're afraid what your social circle think if your children mix with children of people like that.

2. Your neighbours are racists and sexists. Petition their kids to be kicked out from your kids' school. They don't deserve an education.

3. Let your child go play with them, then if your child has a positive experience, let him go again next time. If not, protect the child from the consequences of not going next time.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#510

Post by knowaveragejoe »

cmdrfred wrote: post #369
knowaveragejoe wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That'll be bad for everyone involved. Even the victors will have a rough time of it; and from your perspective, there's a non-trivial chance they don't align with your beliefs. People advocating for this have no concept of warfare in general, nevermind in a modern setting. The people hurt the most are always the innocent non-combatant civilians.

> The people hurt the most are always the innocent non-combatant civilians. That isn't true now anyway? I don't advocate for anything, all I know is if the current trend continues, like every other free society that has gone down this same road, It will end very badly and then will improve for a generation or so. "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. it is it’s…

I'm sorry but no. The vast majority of examples of violent revolution end badly for everyone involved, even the victors. The phrase "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" has a lot of truth to it.

That's, of course, humoring the notion that this is in the cards in the developed world. If you step out of the echochambers on the Internet and interact with people in reality, you begin to see that things aren't nearly as bad as the curated outrage porn would lead you to believe.

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