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Why do the poor make poor decisions?

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Re: Why do the poor make poor decisions?

#61
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this post is pretty ignorant. Yea, people who were formerly rich will have better financial habits. If you were born into poverty, who is going to teach you those good financial habits in the first place? Yea, that would probably be better diet. But do they even know how to eat healthy? Do they have time to cook? Are they even able to get to a grocery store? Yea, you could probably get a decent suit at a thri…

> I think this post is pretty ignorant. I'm not expressing any animosity toward, or disdain for, people in poverty. I agree with the article that being poor inhibits people's ability to make good decisions for themselves, and that the best way to break the vicious cycle may be to provide them with enough income that they have more freedom to make decisions that will improve their circumstances. I disagree with the pa…

Yea, I didn't think you were being harsh or anything. I meant ignorant literally. Certainly people in poverty make bad decisions, everyone makes bad decisions, but alot of those bad decisions are based on a lack of education that is largely out of their control.

I don't have hard numbers, but I think you are overestimating people in poverty's disposable income and access to fresh groceries.

Re: Why do the poor make poor decisions?

#62
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you have zero energy to shop for hierloom tomatoes, pick some basil from your herb garden, and whip up a nice little caprese What are you even talking about? There are many foods that are inexpensive and healthy, the kind of foods that people have been eating for thousands of years. Rice and beans, for instance. Honestly I don't know why I'm even replying to you; making childish straw men arguments means you have n…

I was trying to explain that many people in poverty are short on things other than money. Like time, flexibility, creativity, and willpower. Telling them "to cook more because rice and beans are cheap!" is missing the realities on the ground for many. Besides, you can get fat on rice an beans really easily. Again, willpower can be in short supply. Anyway, these aren't straw-man arguments. I've been there. My family i…

> Anyway, these aren't straw-man arguments.

rco8786 says that it's possible to eat cheaply and healthily, and you respond like he's talking about heirloom tomatoes and caprese salad. That is absolutely a straw man.

Re: Why do the poor make poor decisions?

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's the real answer. Each of your bullet points has some truth to it, but is far from the whole story: > you only need to borrow if you don't have money. > you can only save if you have money. Certainly more income makes these easier. But consider the following impossible-to-conduct-in-reality-experiment: Set group A to be a set of 100 randomly selected poor folks who are only qualified to be cashier…

(This reply may come across as harsh. I don't think you're bad or dumb for your views. I think you haven't a chance to experience some of this stuff from the inside so you're making reasonable guesses about what's going on, and some of those guesses are understandably limited because you don't have direct experience with the issue.) --- This is a pretty patronizing view. You led with an intention to get "the whole st…

Hm...

(1) I think you have at least partially misconstrued my comment. It is not my intention even a little to dismiss the plight of the poor. I agree with the article that being poor inhibits people's ability to make good decisions for themselves, and that the best way to break the vicious cycle may be to provide them with enough income that they have more freedom to make decisions that will improve their circumstances. I certainly do not think asking them to dig themselves out on their own is the last word in a conversation about how to solve poverty.

(2) My bullet points about diet/clothing/saving/debt/etc were not intended to mean the poor have a way out and need no help. I was simply pointing out that there are ways that a more educated/energetic/encultured person can behave that will yield better outcomes. The parent comment's thesis seemed to be that nobody with those financial means could do any better, and that seems wrong to me.

(2.1) I have been convinced by some other comments plus some googling that I have overestimated the means of many of the poor. A one-child household that can only scrape together $5k per year in the USA is in dire circumstances indeed. Google suggests such households are rather more common than I thought.

(2.2) I included that thrift store bit in an attempt to cover all the parent comment's points. In actuality, I think that the fraction of jobs where the candidate's wardrobe budget is a serious factor in determining eligibility is so small that this is not worthy of in-depth discussion.

(2.3) While I can imagine situations in which your spend-all-the-money-because-ill-end-up-in-a-hole-anyway logic seems genuinely valid, I'm not sure how common they are, and I'm skeptical that anyone actually performs that particular calculus in their brains. It seems like regular thoughtless spending is probably more the norm, even when that calculus is offered as a rationalization after the fact.

(3) Who really takes signals about socioeconomic class into account when making hiring decisions? Is this different from rejecting less-educated candidates due to their inferior communication skills? Does anyone mind a secretary/cashier/barista/construction-worker/floor-manager who seems like they are poor (or even from some alien subculture with wildly different social sensibilities) as long as they are efficient and productive and communicate effectively? If so, that sounds like a pretty small-minded hiring manager to me.

(4) Thanks for your comment. I still think I mostly agree with the article's thesis, but I'm coming around to the idea that I'm not fully appreciating number of people who find themselves in economic situations where savings of any kind are nearly impossible.

(5) I realize that my point of contention with the parent post is somewhat irrelevant because, regardless of which of us is correct, the proper way to combat poverty probably does not change. We both believe (I think) that a large fraction of the population is not going to be stuck in poverty unless/until the rest of us provide them with an unconditional income substantial enough to let them turn their lives around.

Re: Why do the poor make poor decisions?

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(This reply may come across as harsh. I don't think you're bad or dumb for your views. I think you haven't a chance to experience some of this stuff from the inside so you're making reasonable guesses about what's going on, and some of those guesses are understandably limited because you don't have direct experience with the issue.) --- This is a pretty patronizing view. You led with an intention to get "the whole st…

Hm... (1) I think you have at least partially misconstrued my comment. It is not my intention even a little to dismiss the plight of the poor. I agree with the article that being poor inhibits people's ability to make good decisions for themselves, and that the best way to break the vicious cycle may be to provide them with enough income that they have more freedom to make decisions that will improve their circumstan…

Hey, thanks for playing :)

I'm glad to hear we're basically in agreement. For whatever reason I still want you to understand how fucked some people are, through no fault of their own.

re: 2.2. I can trivially counterpoint. Hopefully this analogy works--maybe you've seen the show The Wire. Imagine basically any one of the kids from the ghetto, or how about Bubbles. [For reference, these characters are all poor and black.]

Let's say he got clean and didn't look literally like a crack head, but he was the same guy with the same means, now looking for a job. Recall that Bubbles is particularly charaismatic and likable [for a homeless drug addict]. Imagine what he sounds like when he talks. Imagine how he might feel and act around a "professional" white guy (think about things like body language and cultural signaling). Imagine the clothes he owns and wears daily.

As a hiring manager for a professional position, you wouldn't take his appearance into account? Even if he got himself a thrift store suit you could still "smell the poor on him." Think about how he talks--imagine considering him for a retail position at a suburban mall. Are you going to let him sell ice cream to white suburban moms? What about letting him do your taxes? Represent you in court? Maybe he somehow went to a dev bootcamp, are you going to take a chance on Bubbles, or will you give it to the bright young [white middle class] kid? (Bonus: how about hiring him to plumb your new home? Note how that one feels distinctly different from above.)

It doesn't even have to be racial. Imagine a lily white girl born and raised in a trailer park Appalachia. At 25 she decides she's tired of her generational poverty, and somehow overcomes the basically impossible barrier of moving from the boonies to a place with job prospects. No one she ever knew ever worked any jobs except menial labor, and one uncle who is a trucker, so she doesn't really know how to do it or what a resume should look like, but she does her best using google to help her. She has a kid, the dad's long gone. She can cover up all her tattoos except the one on her neck. She looks and sounds distinctly "white trash."

Are you going to hire her as your receptionist? Are you going to add her as the 3rd dental hygienist at your dental practice? What will your professional customers think of her tattoo?

re: 2.3. I think you'd be surprised how many people would explicitly use this line of reasoning, but that doesn't matter. I said it was adaptive, by which I meant there was an emergent sort of wisdom in doing what would irresponsible for a middle class person to do.

re 3, see 2.2 above. Also, I imagine that when you're thinking poor, you're thinking of someone who is like you, except delta. Poverty marks people deeply, in ways that are hard to escape. If you don't think you take this into account during hiring, then that is the water you're swimming in--it's not a fact about your virtue, but a fact about how filtering happens before you ever get to see the candidates who were privileged enough to have practical access to the system by which you hire.

re 4: (thumbsup)

Re: Why do the poor make poor decisions?

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm... (1) I think you have at least partially misconstrued my comment. It is not my intention even a little to dismiss the plight of the poor. I agree with the article that being poor inhibits people's ability to make good decisions for themselves, and that the best way to break the vicious cycle may be to provide them with enough income that they have more freedom to make decisions that will improve their circumstan…

Hey, thanks for playing :) I'm glad to hear we're basically in agreement. For whatever reason I still want you to understand how fucked some people are, through no fault of their own. re: 2.2. I can trivially counterpoint. Hopefully this analogy works--maybe you've seen the show The Wire. Imagine basically any one of the kids from the ghetto, or how about Bubbles. [For reference, these characters are all poor and bla…

I'll have to put "The Wire" on my ever-growing list of things I don't have time to watch :)

I suppose you're pretty much right about everything here. But with my eastern-connecticut goggles stuck irremovably over my eyes I still have trouble accepting that it can be so hard to get someone to hire you.

I don't think I know anyone under 60 who would object to a girl based on her having a tattoo on her neck.

While in college, working various jobs to pay my tuition, I worked alongside a variety of poor individuals, both rural "white-trashy" types and urban people of various races (It's a pretty rural area, but a bunch of people would take a 1-hour shuttle ride from Hartford to throw boxes around at the Fed-Ex distribution hub). These people varied widely in intelligence, charisma, criminality, and work ethic. I got to know many of them and had a fairly good sense of what each was capable of. If I am ever in a position where I'm hiring a receptionist or a construction crew or a store clerk or a plumber for my own house, and I get an applicant that looks like one of those guys I used to work with, I will certainly give them a serious interview and determine as best I can whether they are both reliable and capable of doing the job.

Of course, the job will go to the most promising applicant and it doesn't seem unlikely that another candidate with a middle class upbringing would demonstrate better literacy or communication skills or critical thinking abilities (or maybe even work ethic?) and I don't deny that this places the poor at a disadvantage in a competitive job market. But it's not clear to me that this is the same thing as a systematic bias against those who "smell poor".

Re: Why do the poor make poor decisions?

#66
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was trying to explain that many people in poverty are short on things other than money. Like time, flexibility, creativity, and willpower. Telling them "to cook more because rice and beans are cheap!" is missing the realities on the ground for many. Besides, you can get fat on rice an beans really easily. Again, willpower can be in short supply. Anyway, these aren't straw-man arguments. I've been there. My family i…

> Anyway, these aren't straw-man arguments. rco8786 says that it's possible to eat cheaply and healthily, and you respond like he's talking about heirloom tomatoes and caprese salad. That is absolutely a straw man.

If that's true, so is pretending that poor people haven't heard of rice and beans before.

Re: Why do the poor make poor decisions?

#67
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyway, these aren't straw-man arguments. rco8786 says that it's possible to eat cheaply and healthily, and you respond like he's talking about heirloom tomatoes and caprese salad. That is absolutely a straw man.

If that's true, so is pretending that poor people haven't heard of rice and beans before.

The whole point of me listing Rice and Beans was that it was a cheap and healthy food that poor people have heard of, and have eaten for thousands of years. So no, that's not a straw man, unlike what you said.

Re: Why do the poor make poor decisions?

#68

A better question might be, why do poor US born Americans make poor decisions while poor legal immigrants (regardless of race or color) arrive with nothing and make wiser decisions. These first generation immigrant often escapes poverty within 15-20 years (albeit with very hard work). Their children are more successful then they were and far more successful financially than the US born American's children. Knowing so…

Cannot find a more bigoted version of it elsewhere of the Internet. You do know said immigrants tend to work illegally or for subhuman wages, pooling their wealth and network in local societies? They also tend to immigrate not to rural our crime-laden parts of the US. On the other hand, US poor are nuclear and in places with few perspectives. They might be saddled with debt, a problem which the immigrants do not have…

The people you describe are not the people I am describing. What debt do poor Americans have? they can't even get credit. These immigrants I describe live in ghettos along with the US born poor but guess which ones move out and into a nicer neighborhood in ten years? Trust me, debt means nothing. We have this thing called bankruptcy. I know plenty of people who were in debt, declared bankruptcy and started over with a clean slate, they built themselves back up. You have no idea what you are talking about.
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