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Nick Farr's 30c3 Jake Appelbaum story of abuse and harassment

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Re: Nick Farr's 30c3 Jake Appelbaum story of abuse and harassment

#81

Post by dfraser992 »

Johnny_Brahms wrote: post #9

I met JA at one of the C3 conventions . he's an extremely charismatic guy. you get sucked in. But then after a while he started to behave very badly towards one in the group. Shaming her and being a jerk in general, but with a smile. I dont know if everyone got what he was doing because it was delivered in such an underhanded way. I couldn't stand it and walked away, and I still regret I didn't tell him to shut the f…

It's comments like this that need a trigger warning to prevent me from having flashbacks about the few situations I have been in

A fundamental lesson that I came away with from the whole mess was that a measure of a person is how they treat others. You can allow for some variance in temperament, or the stress of a situation (I have flamed people back in the day), but as long as one acknowledges overreaching, or the wrong of getting too personal... it shows a basic fundamental respect for other people. The psychopath I had to deal with had none of that - it took time to gather enough data to see through his charming behavior and "acknowledge" whatever compliments he may dish out never quite felt sincere, considering the bulk of his behaviors were essentially bullying behaviors.

As for your feelings of regret, I am there too. I should have been more assertive, in retrospect, to get this person to back down - we were always butting heads in some fashion, but it was more sniper fire-ish - when he did cross the line, a thorough public chewing out (as professional as possible) on Facebook (that was the comm channel he insisted everyone use for business purposes) might have taught him some respect. Or enraged him so much that he would have finally tipped his hand about his true nature. But the group's standard response "well, that's Peter... he really needs to get off social media once in awhile, his dog is sick, his mother just died...." Rationalizations But over time, the cognitive dissonance builds up enough that you can't ignore it all anymore.

Re: Nick Farr's 30c3 Jake Appelbaum story of abuse and harassment

#82

Post by dfraser992 »

chris_wot wrote: post #5

If you ever deal with a sociopath, just learn to accept that nothing you can do will defeat them and get the hell away from this person as quickly as you possibly can. I've dealt with three people in my life who I consider sociopaths or pyschopaths. The first time I had no idea what to expect, so it was a massive shock. The second time, I watched them turn on me incredibly rapidly, and from going from being supportiv…

My sympathies. Have an upvote for the useful info. It sounds worse than what I went thru as you had to deal with a number of idiots, not just one.

Re: Nick Farr's 30c3 Jake Appelbaum story of abuse and harassment

#83

Post by fit2rule »

chinathrow wrote: post #6

> One person following this pattern submitted an LT proposal alleging that Jake was a US Intelligence Operative. Appelbaums reaction to this occurence seems quite strong. That other person wasn't the only one thinking the same. Too bad that talk never happened.

I agree. One can only hope that this will be Streisand'ed out into the public sphere eventually, however ..

Re: Nick Farr's 30c3 Jake Appelbaum story of abuse and harassment

#84

Post by [deleted] »

nickfarr wrote: post #25
danso wrote: post #12

> One person following this pattern submitted an LT proposal alleging that Jake was a US Intelligence Operative. I LOLed. After a few rounds of encrypted e-mail pestering and a few texts, they insisted on being put on the schedule. I did so to appease, as was my strategy at the time, with every intention of pulling them off after they inevitably failed to follow directions. You can go look at the wiki histories for a…

I guess I didn't make this clear enough in the post, but I had no intention of letting the talk go forward unless the presenter could bring up some really solid evidence of some sort. Slides, some kind of visual element or documentation were required to earn/keep your LT slot and, for understandable reasons, some people wait until the last minute to submit the final draft of those. To be crass, I threw this person on…

[deleted]

Re: Nick Farr's 30c3 Jake Appelbaum story of abuse and harassment

#85

Post by [deleted] »

jmcgough wrote: post #66
colllectorof wrote: post #52

It's disturbing that so many tech communities these days seem to be incapable of handling such things without some kind of public showdown that involves social media. If the accusations are false, I wouldn't want to be at a conference where a bunch of people would pile onto someone (for whatever reason) to ruin the person's reputation. If accusations are true, I wouldn't want to be at a conference where someone can b…

From the FAQ on jacobappelbaum.net: Q: WHY DID YOU MAKE THE SITE? A: We made the site because we wanted other people to be aware of how Jake behaves. There has been a whisper network for years, but it doesn't reach everyone, and even if it could, open secrets do not protect people. We didn't want anyone to be victimized by Jake just because they hadn't been warned about him. Making a public site is the best way to ma…

[deleted]

Re: Nick Farr's 30c3 Jake Appelbaum story of abuse and harassment

#86

Post by forgottenpass »

colllectorof wrote: post #52

It's disturbing that so many tech communities these days seem to be incapable of handling such things without some kind of public showdown that involves social media. If the accusations are false, I wouldn't want to be at a conference where a bunch of people would pile onto someone (for whatever reason) to ruin the person's reputation. If accusations are true, I wouldn't want to be at a conference where someone can b…

incapable of handling such things without some kind of public showdown that involves social media.

But there isn't any formal power structure. The only things "communities" can base decisions on are legal records and social reputation.

If you don't want to be at a conference where someone can be abusive to others, what exactly do you suggest they use to determine who can and can't get in? An extralegal quasi-judicial system that weighs rumors and conjecture to keep undesirables out? And how do you keep that process meaningfully distinct from a conference where a bunch of people pile onto someone for whatever reason to ruin a reputation?

tl;dr: It's not possible to have it both ways.

Re: Nick Farr's 30c3 Jake Appelbaum story of abuse and harassment

#88

Post by nickpsecurity »

This whole situation is disturbing to me as a solo operator always considering getting deeper into the INFOSEC circle. Ok, here's what's happened in around 24 hours or so: weird tweet done in a style used for evidence; tweet mob claiming the guy is a rapist; entire, styled site goes up with detailed descriptions that he's verbally an asshole + "Coming Soon" placeholders (could be rape claims by now); people claiming claims are legit because people doing smears are standup people; people agreeing its true because it's already known to unknown people; all kinds of people making excuses for why they should say and do everything except file rape charges with due process.

Another commenter used the word bizarre. To me, it looks both bizarre and like smear campaigns by trolls that I've seen destroy people that were probably innocent. Now, I know Jake is an asshole and we now have one credible witness, Nick Farr, to extreme bullying. Yet, these are the exact kinds of tactics liars, trolls, SJW's, and spooks use on innocent people. The targets get "convicted by the media" without a trial or any real chance of defense. Many people wrongly assume large number of accounts saying same thing means it's open and shut.

They need to knock that stuff off to handle this right anyway. If one or more rapes happened, they need to contact the authorities to give full details on this. That FBI already wants to throw him in a cell with a number of witnesses claiming rape and others claiming bullying should make this easy (read: barely due process). In this case, Jake will be able to tell his side of the story, bring in his witnesses, and so on rather than one side's media campaign being sole decider of his fate. Plus, I find it hypocritical that the website describes its existence is to protect the next community from a "sexual predator." They'll tweet, accuse, make websites... all kinds of talk to "protect" others from a "sociopath"... but won't go to the police to attempt an arrest, conviction, and prison stay for same sociopath. Unheard of reaction in my parts among liberals or conservatives. Always cops involved when it's this public with people usually doing time.

I recommend people stay clear of both Jake Appelbaum and any of these idiots in the smear campaign. You can bet they'll do the same shit to you if you piss them off too much. Probably won't be rape claims but you'll be defending an online shitstorm. Nick Farr seems to be an exception who I hope recovers from any abuse he received and gets back to doing the good things people here describe. Definitely hang with him sometime.

Re: Nick Farr's 30c3 Jake Appelbaum story of abuse and harassment

#89

Post by PavlovsCat »

werthersOrigin wrote: post #77
PavlovsCat wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I get several downvotes, but not a single response so far, neither to this nor here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11839033 Also not one word about what might be wrong about what I said or asked. This is quite incredible. And even if more substance comes forth, which I hope -- and I mean that, because it's not that I don't believe the claims at all -- that precedent kind of remains. When I say I find this,…

As a total stranger on The Inernet, I'll reply. So, people saying things on the internet, in the press, out in the world, in many ways are permitted to speak freely. Anecdotes and personal opinions are permitted in civilized discourse, when the context is not a legal court of law. All this is just so much gossip, and it's people blowing off pent up steam, and airing out frustration. Big deal. Reputations are on the l…

> That's how it works, when a person is telling their own tale, about their own experiences.

That's hardly describes all that is going on here.

> Reputations are on the line, and not much else.

"Not much else", right. Can you tell me what would be at stake for the people to actually argue like adults, instead of ignoring and downvoting and handwaving? With any random technical subject any remotely valid question gets discussed, and now you're trying to tell me this is normal, that this isn't a shit show?

> he real world doesn't actually operate on justice and ratios. Shit floats by. People get over it.

So you're essentially saying you don't care because you don't care. You can call that a reply, if you want. Something you signed up for with a spooky name relating to a literary figure who killed himself, "inspiring" a wave of suicides. The only signal sending is a bit of creepyness, the rest is just noise.

> Dialog is not transactional. Conversations are not permanent and destroying.

What does that even mean? Is it really so much to ask to have at least the plagiarism claims backed up? You see, ignoring that, while claiming he ruined so many people, including someone who killed themselves (as a result? as result of completely unrelated things?), that also says something.

> People get over it.

People would also get over having haven answered in earnest, or not not downvoting things they can't or don't want to address. HN would totally survive having one story about this that doesn't get flagged, you know? So don't tell me to take this virtual lynching lightly, while you don't mind people apparently having huge issues with very simple questions.

Re: Nick Farr's 30c3 Jake Appelbaum story of abuse and harassment

#90

Post by [deleted] »

forgottenpass wrote: post #86
colllectorof wrote: post #52

It's disturbing that so many tech communities these days seem to be incapable of handling such things without some kind of public showdown that involves social media. If the accusations are false, I wouldn't want to be at a conference where a bunch of people would pile onto someone (for whatever reason) to ruin the person's reputation. If accusations are true, I wouldn't want to be at a conference where someone can b…

incapable of handling such things without some kind of public showdown that involves social media. But there isn't any formal power structure. The only things "communities" can base decisions on are legal records and social reputation. If you don't want to be at a conference where someone can be abusive to others, what exactly do you suggest they use to determine who can and can't get in? An extralegal quasi-judicial…

[deleted]
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