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Nick Farr's 30c3 Jake Appelbaum story of abuse and harassment

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Re: Nick Farr's 30c3 Jake Appelbaum story of abuse and harassment

#11

Post by powera »

djcapelis wrote: post #10

Meredith and Andrea were, according to too many people yesterday: untrustworthy and biased. Many comments here urged everyone to suspend judgement, not rush to conclusions and not take allegations overly seriously. (Not always a bad idea, but apparently much less important today.) Now that Nick has written his story however, it goes back on the front page of HN and the comments here basically support it as totally cr…

I'm not sure why people would have thought that Meredith and Andrea were biased. All they said was "Jacob was accused of sexual harassment", and they said it before the Tor release confirming exactly what they said.

On the other hand, the http://jacobappelbaum.net/ site is clearly biased.

If the only thing you can see is that all of those are women accusing Jacob of sexual harassment, you're probably sexist.

Re: Nick Farr's 30c3 Jake Appelbaum story of abuse and harassment

#12

Post by danso »

> One person following this pattern submitted an LT proposal alleging that Jake was a US Intelligence Operative. I LOLed. After a few rounds of encrypted e-mail pestering and a few texts, they insisted on being put on the schedule. I did so to appease, as was my strategy at the time, with every intention of pulling them off after they inevitably failed to follow directions. You can go look at the wiki histories for any LT I organized to show this was what I often did with dubious presentations.

This doesn't excuse the level of JA's alleged continued hostility, but this is an example of why, for conference-level situations, talks and topics should be discussed by a group of people, rather than just having one person make the decision. I could see why a talk accusing JA of being an informant might be funny in a close-knit group, but it sounds like people actively hated JA by this time, and this conflict, combined with the paranoia that is probably natural in this field, would add to JA seeing this as an aggressive act of hostility. With one decision-maker who has a quirky sense of humor and/or more laid back attitude, such a talk could seem harmless. But I think if another person had been part of the talk-filtering process, they would've seen the proposed talk as unnecessary antagonism.

But while JA had a right to be angry about the proposal, that doesn't justify harassing Farr, or demanding the private details of the proposer, or obviously, any of the other allegations against JA. Good for Farr for standing up for the privacy of the individual who proposed the talk.

Re: Nick Farr's 30c3 Jake Appelbaum story of abuse and harassment

#13

Post by rdl »

djcapelis wrote: post #10

Meredith and Andrea were, according to too many people yesterday: untrustworthy and biased. Many comments here urged everyone to suspend judgement, not rush to conclusions and not take allegations overly seriously. (Not always a bad idea, but apparently much less important today.) Now that Nick has written his story however, it goes back on the front page of HN and the comments here basically support it as totally cr…

I was equally slow to fully believe Nick until he posted details (which he did). In general I'll evaluate someone's own claims on their merit (including personal credibility), but am a lot less likely to base actions on third party hearsay. If any of the rape accusers posts a similarly detailed account with verifiable facts (easier under his or her own name, but still can be anonymous) those can be taken seriously too.

Nick's account isn't the end of the process; it is the beginning. Now you have to evaluate, give the other parties a chance to respond, etc. Not pre-judging doesn't mean never judging.

Re: Nick Farr's 30c3 Jake Appelbaum story of abuse and harassment

#14

Post by anc84 »

djcapelis wrote: post #10

Meredith and Andrea were, according to too many people yesterday: untrustworthy and biased. Many comments here urged everyone to suspend judgement, not rush to conclusions and not take allegations overly seriously. (Not always a bad idea, but apparently much less important today.) Now that Nick has written his story however, it goes back on the front page of HN and the comments here basically support it as totally cr…

As a counter anecdote: I don't know those people, I "know" Nick and trust him so his story is much more credible than "random twitter accounts spouting filth" to me. Hell, the puellavulnerata account rings too many avoidavoid-bells learned in 25 years of internet to me.

I do not believe in any way that the gender alone can be deemed responsible for your observation. What makes you even think that the same people who you saw alleging those women yesterday are the same who stand behind Nick here?

Re: Nick Farr's 30c3 Jake Appelbaum story of abuse and harassment

#15

Post by anc84 »

danso wrote: post #12

> One person following this pattern submitted an LT proposal alleging that Jake was a US Intelligence Operative. I LOLed. After a few rounds of encrypted e-mail pestering and a few texts, they insisted on being put on the schedule. I did so to appease, as was my strategy at the time, with every intention of pulling them off after they inevitably failed to follow directions. You can go look at the wiki histories for a…

As far as I understand it there was no decision made by Nick except when the organisers intervened. The lightning talks always were chaotic. Nick wrote that the more risky presenters usually did not show anyways, at least that's how I understood it. I think it is awesome to have the LTs not vetted by commitee but being open for anyone who adheres to their format.

Re: Nick Farr's 30c3 Jake Appelbaum story of abuse and harassment

#16

Post by ryan-c »

I was on the 2007 CCC Camp trip that Nick Farr organized. I do remember Jake being an asshole on it, including making many inappropriate sexual comments. Since then, I have heard Jake trash talk Nick Farr quite a few times. Jake's been on my "avoid" list for a long time.

Re: Nick Farr's 30c3 Jake Appelbaum story of abuse and harassment

#17

Post by danso »

djcapelis wrote: post #10

Meredith and Andrea were, according to too many people yesterday: untrustworthy and biased. Many comments here urged everyone to suspend judgement, not rush to conclusions and not take allegations overly seriously. (Not always a bad idea, but apparently much less important today.) Now that Nick has written his story however, it goes back on the front page of HN and the comments here basically support it as totally cr…

I don't know if I saw the HN submission from the others (though I do remember upvoting the post from the Tor blog)...and while there are definitely users who espouse skeptical bias beyond a principled belief in "innocent until proven guilty" when it comes to sexual allegations...but from your description, it sounds like the women were sharing hearsay ("Jake finally raped enough people that Tor as an organisation couldn't ignore it anymore."), whereas Farr has offered a first-person testimonial, which is often more persuasive to people when it comes to evidentiary value.

Re: Nick Farr's 30c3 Jake Appelbaum story of abuse and harassment

#19

Post by lucb1e »

daxorid wrote: post #18

The notes left on his hotel bed daily are the strangest part. Implying Jake is a Fed, or his supporters were actively compromising his physical security?

Yeah I'm not sure whether to believe that part. If I found notes on my pillow, I'd nope the fuck out of there and either go back to the conference or the police station. In any case, that story would not have ended where it does now.

Re: Nick Farr's 30c3 Jake Appelbaum story of abuse and harassment

#20

Post by dmix »

djcapelis wrote: post #10

Meredith and Andrea were, according to too many people yesterday: untrustworthy and biased. Many comments here urged everyone to suspend judgement, not rush to conclusions and not take allegations overly seriously. (Not always a bad idea, but apparently much less important today.) Now that Nick has written his story however, it goes back on the front page of HN and the comments here basically support it as totally cr…

Did Meredith and Andrea actually share a story? I thought it was just a tweet.

I reread the thread in question and yes...that is exactly what people were saying. Basically: Let's hold judgement until we have more information.

Unlike two vague tweets Nick wrote a very detailed story with lots of background. To compare the reaction to those two instances is very disingenuous.

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