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Judge sends two to prison for 7 years for H-1B fraud

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Re: Judge sends two to prison for 7 years for H-1B fraud

#91
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously saying that foreign students subsidize the education of US citizens? That is one of the most absurd statements I've ever read on HN. US student's educations are paid for by student loans, they fund their own tuitions I can assure you. Attending university in the US is a privilege and that does not mean you should be guaranteed a job in the United States upon graduation. You seem to have a real sense…

This essentially ignores the condition of the US (and in particular the Bay area) as the tech capital of the world. The US is not bereft of talent, but the US alone does not produce enough tech talent to sustain its position in the world. In some cases, these American companies "that the H1B folks want to work" were founded by non-Americans or even better, were founded out of the US but moved there as a condition in…

Please show my proof or a citation that the "us does not produce enough tech talent to sustain its position in the world" It seems to me that every year for the last 15 years the US produces new and innovative tech tech companies many very successful. How is this possible then if its not sustainable?

That's a straw man that not buying into the nonsense that without H1B visas the tech economy will grind to a halt means isolationism. The U.S. is a nation of immigrants, diversity is not an issue.

Re: Judge sends two to prison for 7 years for H-1B fraud

#92
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously saying that foreign students subsidize the education of US citizens? That is one of the most absurd statements I've ever read on HN. US student's educations are paid for by student loans, they fund their own tuitions I can assure you. Attending university in the US is a privilege and that does not mean you should be guaranteed a job in the United States upon graduation. You seem to have a real sense…

It may be a reference to the fact that many public colleges have tuition breaks for residents. The other side of that coin is availability. That practice gives those schools a financial incentive to grant full-retail foreign students admission priority over residents. That's certainly the case in California.

Yes because your Mom and Dad paid taxes in that state, thats hardly a subsidy!

Re: Judge sends two to prison for 7 years for H-1B fraud

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you seriously saying that foreign students subsidize the education of US citizens? They absolutely do. Consider that at many schools (particularly UCs) in-state tuition is not enough to cover costs. International students paying high tuition are absolutely helping to subsidize such situations. Even at top private universities, international students can be a major subsidy. Domestic students typically have their…

You are just making stuff up! Please show me a citation that supports the claim that US students get their education on the backs of foreigners. That UC is public university of the state of California, that differential of which you speak is funded by tax payers in California that is why it is cheaper for Californians to attend. Get it right. Here is an abridged history. http://www.dailycal.org/2014/12/22/history-uc-…

It saddens me that instead of trying to understand and debate the truth you instead refuse to accept facts which contradict your worldview.

I never made a political argument. None of my statements were normative. I certainly never said they "get their education on the backs of foreigners."

You can't just deny the objective fact that international students pay more than local students and hence their attendance helps to subsidize local tuition.

Whether this is proper and fair is a completely separate discussion from whether it is true. You can't deny the fact that financial aid for US students is substantially more generous.

As for references, you can find literally hundreds of stories about this very phenomenon:

* http://fusion.net/story/142895/how-international-students-ar...

* http://blogs.wgbh.org/on-campus/2014/6/17/international-enro...

* http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/05/education/international-st...

* https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/05/08/some-public-u...

Re: Judge sends two to prison for 7 years for H-1B fraud

#94
post #82
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I strongly believe that H1Bs should be given out to employees that are offered the highest salary. Clearly there is no shortage if you are not willing to pay one of the highest salaries. Yea, this wouldn't be perfect, but it's much better than the significantly more gameable lottery system we have now.

You're aware that not every H1B is a developer right? Your proposal would change the whole basis of the program in a way that doesn't seem particularly thought out. What about people who are botanists, or harpsichord teachers?

Easy fix -- give the visas to the highest paid people in each job category. After you've gone through each category once, do it again for the next highest paid. Eventually you'll run out of harpsichord teachers and so the more popular categories would keep getting filled until the quota was reached.

Then you get highly paid people and you get a nice cross section of skillsets, and it incentivizes the companies to pay the highest wage for that skill.

Re: Judge sends two to prison for 7 years for H-1B fraud

#95
post #82
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I strongly believe that H1Bs should be given out to employees that are offered the highest salary. Clearly there is no shortage if you are not willing to pay one of the highest salaries. Yea, this wouldn't be perfect, but it's much better than the significantly more gameable lottery system we have now.

You're aware that not every H1B is a developer right? Your proposal would change the whole basis of the program in a way that doesn't seem particularly thought out. What about people who are botanists, or harpsichord teachers?

You could have separate categories for non profit and academic positions.

But for positions in private industry, I don't care. If you really, really need a foreign employee over a domestic one, you will need to pay the H1B premium, competing with everyone else.

It's more fair than a system based on luck, or arbitrary criteria of review board or something guaranteed to be games and manipulated.

Re: Judge sends two to prison for 7 years for H-1B fraud

#96
post #82
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I strongly believe that H1Bs should be given out to employees that are offered the highest salary. Clearly there is no shortage if you are not willing to pay one of the highest salaries. Yea, this wouldn't be perfect, but it's much better than the significantly more gameable lottery system we have now.

You're aware that not every H1B is a developer right? Your proposal would change the whole basis of the program in a way that doesn't seem particularly thought out. What about people who are botanists, or harpsichord teachers?

Is there a shortage of botanists or harpsichord teachers if they are paid less than software developers? This is not obvious to me.

I know plenty of people who went from biology (I know it is not botany exactly) to tech because there are /too many/ biologists.

Re: Judge sends two to prison for 7 years for H-1B fraud

#97
post #83
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That will make company like MS/Google/FB/AMAZN, invincible. Startups are going to be starved. They will not have that much leverage to recruit desired talents.

Are you saying startups could not compete without "cheap" H1B labor?! The H1B is explicitly not supposed to bring in cheaper labor.

I think what he means is, startups can't deal with the uncertainty and lead times the current H-1B system imposes.

Large companies just project how many openings they would have in October next year, hire appropriately, and park them in offshore offices if they didn't make the lottery. And they can afford the application fee too

Re: Judge sends two to prison for 7 years for H-1B fraud

#98
post #6

I rarely comment but this story makes me happy enough to do so. I'm a former H1-B with an American Masters degree in STEM. I think this conviction will go a long way in making the system fairer. Here is what happened. H1-Bs must be legally employed all (well most of) the time they are in the USA. To get past that rule, these H1-B shops act as employers and then farm out the employees to other companies. Employers nee…

I am in the same boat (bachelors + masters from US universities and on H-1B).

I've been in the US for almost 10 years now since undergrad and have put down roots (friends, acquaintances, credit history, etc). It is very unfair for us to be put into the same bucket as body shop labor from India. I personally know several people who were forced to leave the US because they didn't get chosen in the H-1B lottery.

There needs to be a new visa that caters specifically to those in our situation. USCIS needs to let the consultancy companies and body shops compete among themselves for H-1B and stop screwing law-abiding international students who have devoted 4-6 (or more) years of their lives to living in the US, who suddenly might lose everything they've worked for because of the H-1B lottery.

Re: Judge sends two to prison for 7 years for H-1B fraud

#99
post #6

I rarely comment but this story makes me happy enough to do so. I'm a former H1-B with an American Masters degree in STEM. I think this conviction will go a long way in making the system fairer. Here is what happened. H1-Bs must be legally employed all (well most of) the time they are in the USA. To get past that rule, these H1-B shops act as employers and then farm out the employees to other companies. Employers nee…

I am in the same boat (bachelors + masters from US universities and on H-1B).

I've been in the US for almost 10 years now since undergrad and have put down roots (friends, acquaintances, credit history, etc). It is very unfair for us to be put into the same bucket as body shop labor from India. I personally know several people who were forced to leave the US because they didn't get chosen in the H-1B lottery.

There needs to be a new visa that caters specifically to those in our situation. USCIS needs to let the consultancy companies and body shops compete among themselves for H-1B and stop screwing law-abiding international students who have devoted 4-6 (or more) years of their lives to living in the US, who suddenly might lose everything they've worked for because of the H-1B lottery.

Re: Judge sends two to prison for 7 years for H-1B fraud

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you seriously saying that foreign students subsidize the education of US citizens? They absolutely do. Consider that at many schools (particularly UCs) in-state tuition is not enough to cover costs. International students paying high tuition are absolutely helping to subsidize such situations. Even at top private universities, international students can be a major subsidy. Domestic students typically have their…

You are just making stuff up! Please show me a citation that supports the claim that US students get their education on the backs of foreigners. That UC is public university of the state of California, that differential of which you speak is funded by tax payers in California that is why it is cheaper for Californians to attend. Get it right. Here is an abridged history. http://www.dailycal.org/2014/12/22/history-uc-…

Article referenced by parent only has data for state funds making up 16 percent of the total budget in 2004/2005. Using that source no conclusions can be made for the following years. Only percentage of tuition (across all students) as a percentage of total budget is presented.

The phenomenon of out-of-state students significantly supplementing budget deficiencies that ordinarily would result in a necessary increase of tuition for in-state students only began around 2009/2010.

Quoting a newer article (~1 year ago) from the same source [1]:

>Out-of-state students currently pay about $23,000 more in tuition than California residents do, according to Stephen Handel, UC associate vice president of undergraduate admissions. After the UC Board of Regents’ approval of an 8 percent nonresident tuition increase in May, however, that number will jump to about $24,700 for the upcoming academic year.

>Revenue from nonresident students “helps to make up for the cutbacks in state support received over the years,” Handel said.

And another article (from early 2016) with a helpful graphic [2]:

>In the fall, nonresident students made up 15.54 percent of all undergraduates in the university and 24.52 percent of UC Berkeley undergraduates. According to an email from UC spokesperson Claire Doan, the university’s enrollment of non-Californians, who pay higher tuition, helps make up for a lack of state funding.

>“The increase in out-of-state enrollment coincided with budget cuts that related to the Great Recession,” said Hans Johnson, a senior fellow at the Public Policy Institute of California. “Those out-of-state students help to provide funding for in-state students.”

And finally the UC system 2015-2016 budget document. See on page 40 the section for non-resident supplemental tuition:

>All general campuses (except Merced) have sought to increase their numbers of national and international students without replacing funded California residents. UC’s priority continues to be access for eligible California residents for whom the State has provided funding. Nevertheless, nonresident students help prepare all students to effectively live and work in an increasingly global marketplace. Moreover, the total charges they pay significantly exceed the cost of education, providing extra revenue that improves education for all students and enables campuses to maintain and increase enrollment for California resident students. Systemwide nonresident undergraduate enrollment represents a little over 13% of the undergraduate population in 2014-15, whereas more than 30% and 40% of undergraduates are nonresidents at the University of Virginia and the University of Michigan respectively. For 2015-16, the University is estimating campuses will enroll an additional 2,000 nonresident students

[1]: http://www.dailycal.org/2015/07/02/uc-admissions-data-for-20...

[2]: http://www.dailycal.org/2016/01/27/state-assembly-members-in...

[3]: http://www.ucop.edu/operating-budget/_files/rbudget/2015-16b...

see also this op-ed: http://www.dailycal.org/2016/04/01/blame-university-lack-sta...

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