Earlier quoted context omitted.
Transferring signed packages over TLS only prevents the attacker from observing which particular packages are being updated, and that’s assuming the padding alone is sufficient to obscure identification by size. Otherwise signing packages is actually preferred, because you can do it offline, so that hacking the server is not enough to push malicious code.
But that assumes hardware vendors' signature verification code is correct -- and crypto is really hard to get right
ASUS delivers BIOS/UEFI auto-updates over HTTP with no verification
151–160 of 200 posts
Re: ASUS delivers BIOS/UEFI auto-updates over HTTP with no verification
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
In the case of routers, things are beginning to change because the FCC is requiring that manufacturers prevent users from modifying radio parameters to their satisfaction and the easiest way to do that is to prevent users from using OSS firware The flip-side is that this isn't the sort of security most of us want, and the fact that router firmware is "insecure" from this perspective is what enables things like DD-WRT…
> The flip-side is that this isn't the sort of security most of us want, and the fact that router firmware is "insecure" from this perspective is what enables things like DD-WRT to exist in the first place. See also: iOS jailbreaking, Android rooting, console homebrew, etc. There is a difference between making updates available in a way that enables custom firmware and doing them in a way that permits MITM attacks. L…
Re: ASUS delivers BIOS/UEFI auto-updates over HTTP with no verification
#153Earlier quoted context omitted.
But that assumes hardware vendors' signature verification code is correct -- and crypto is really hard to get right
You don't need to verify it on the target system though?
Re: ASUS delivers BIOS/UEFI auto-updates over HTTP with no verification
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
Vehicle manufacturers also have this same mindset issue with their in-vehicle entertainment systems. For them things are either a "recall" or they don't exist, they have no concept of software updates or how to deliver them.
Yep. I find it baffling that people in the tech industry (who should know better) are enthusiastic about vehicle infotainment systems, Apple CarPlay, Android Auto, etc. Keep it simple. Power, a 3.5mm audio connector, and a windshield suction mount. Something they can't screw up too badly. I can easily buy a new smartphone every 2 years, but a car I'm going to hold on to for more like 10. Why would I want to be stuck…
This is EXACTLY why CarPlay and Android Auto make us enthusiastic - the user interface is run and rendered on your phone, not the infotainment unit. The unit just shows a video stream of UI and sends back keystrokes, GPS and other data. Hence updating functionality and applications is in domain of your smartphone not the car or headunit manufacturer.
Re: ASUS delivers BIOS/UEFI auto-updates over HTTP with no verification
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Why would I want to be stuck with a 5-generation-old navigation/music player system when the car is still fine? Why would you be? Isn't this a solved problem? When you want to upgrade your entertainment system, you head to somewhere like Crutchfield or Sonic or Best Buy and buy a new one to plug in. In many cars, it takes less time to install a new car infotainment unit than it takes to buy a new iPhone from a carr…
What cars are we talking about? Modern cars integrate their entertainment system with a bunch of car-specific features, so it's no longer possible to swap "just the player" unit, like it was possible earlier.
With Electric cars / Hybrids, I can see issues since they integrate environmental controls and other stuff in to their radios. I suspect as electric cars become more common, entertainment companies will start building units with support for those features.
Re: ASUS delivers BIOS/UEFI auto-updates over HTTP with no verification
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
Vehicle manufacturers also have this same mindset issue with their in-vehicle entertainment systems. For them things are either a "recall" or they don't exist, they have no concept of software updates or how to deliver them.
Actually, that's not quite true. I know of at least one manufacturer whose internal commitment is 15 years. HOWEVER, the problem is all the third party interfaces that these systems increasingly leverage. I can pretty much guarantee that Google Maps is not going to be the same 15 years down the road and I very much doubt Google has the interest in supporting something for that period of time. So somewhere down the ro…
Re: ASUS delivers BIOS/UEFI auto-updates over HTTP with no verification
#157Earlier quoted context omitted.
I find there's a pervasive hardware culture that's at odds with both software and security cultures. Hardware culture involves designing it once, testing it once, setting up the supply chain and production line once, and from then on it's just quality control and marketing: totally a fire-and-forget weapon. That means in a hardware dominated organization, where you sell hardware, revenue is in terms of units sold. An…
Vehicle manufacturers also have this same mindset issue with their in-vehicle entertainment systems. For them things are either a "recall" or they don't exist, they have no concept of software updates or how to deliver them.
It took Toyota a long time to build their reputation you'd think other manufactures would do the same WRT software.
Re: ASUS delivers BIOS/UEFI auto-updates over HTTP with no verification
#158Earlier quoted context omitted.
What cars are we talking about? Modern cars integrate their entertainment system with a bunch of car-specific features, so it's no longer possible to swap "just the player" unit, like it was possible earlier.
I'm using a Toyota Yaris as an example. All recent models (including the current 2016 model) can be swapped out easily. With Electric cars / Hybrids, I can see issues since they integrate environmental controls and other stuff in to their radios. I suspect as electric cars become more common, entertainment companies will start building units with support for those features.
Re: ASUS delivers BIOS/UEFI auto-updates over HTTP with no verification
#159Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yep. I find it baffling that people in the tech industry (who should know better) are enthusiastic about vehicle infotainment systems, Apple CarPlay, Android Auto, etc. Keep it simple. Power, a 3.5mm audio connector, and a windshield suction mount. Something they can't screw up too badly. I can easily buy a new smartphone every 2 years, but a car I'm going to hold on to for more like 10. Why would I want to be stuck…
> Why would I want to be stuck with a 5-generation-old navigation/music player system when the car is still fine? This is EXACTLY why CarPlay and Android Auto make us enthusiastic - the user interface is run and rendered on your phone, not the infotainment unit. The unit just shows a video stream of UI and sends back keystrokes, GPS and other data. Hence updating functionality and applications is in domain of your sm…
Re: ASUS delivers BIOS/UEFI auto-updates over HTTP with no verification
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yep. I find it baffling that people in the tech industry (who should know better) are enthusiastic about vehicle infotainment systems, Apple CarPlay, Android Auto, etc. Keep it simple. Power, a 3.5mm audio connector, and a windshield suction mount. Something they can't screw up too badly. I can easily buy a new smartphone every 2 years, but a car I'm going to hold on to for more like 10. Why would I want to be stuck…
> Why would I want to be stuck with a 5-generation-old navigation/music player system when the car is still fine? Why would you be? Isn't this a solved problem? When you want to upgrade your entertainment system, you head to somewhere like Crutchfield or Sonic or Best Buy and buy a new one to plug in. In many cars, it takes less time to install a new car infotainment unit than it takes to buy a new iPhone from a carr…
You can't just replace it and get identical/better functionality.