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ASUS delivers BIOS/UEFI auto-updates over HTTP with no verification

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Re: ASUS delivers BIOS/UEFI auto-updates over HTTP with no verification

#151
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Transferring signed packages over TLS only prevents the attacker from observing which particular packages are being updated, and that’s assuming the padding alone is sufficient to obscure identification by size. Otherwise signing packages is actually preferred, because you can do it offline, so that hacking the server is not enough to push malicious code.

But that assumes hardware vendors' signature verification code is correct -- and crypto is really hard to get right

Is it really that hard? Assuming you generate a public/private key, there's openssl RSA_sign and RSA_verify whose interfaces are pretty simple, clear and well documented. There's a difference between "I'm going to write a new way to do asymmetric encryption" which is really hard, and "I'm going to use RSA to verify/sign a binary" which is really easy. I'm seeing a tendency to say that crypto is hard for anything that has to do with crypto which is not the case. While erring on the side of caution is commendable, let's not push vigilance to the point where taking the hash of a file is considered hard crypto to get right.

Re: ASUS delivers BIOS/UEFI auto-updates over HTTP with no verification

#152
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of routers, things are beginning to change because the FCC is requiring that manufacturers prevent users from modifying radio parameters to their satisfaction and the easiest way to do that is to prevent users from using OSS firware The flip-side is that this isn't the sort of security most of us want, and the fact that router firmware is "insecure" from this perspective is what enables things like DD-WRT…

> The flip-side is that this isn't the sort of security most of us want, and the fact that router firmware is "insecure" from this perspective is what enables things like DD-WRT to exist in the first place. See also: iOS jailbreaking, Android rooting, console homebrew, etc. There is a difference between making updates available in a way that enables custom firmware and doing them in a way that permits MITM attacks. L…

Perhaps it was just a case of misunderstanding, but your sentence read like you were implying that preventing users from updating the firmwares was a good thing.

Re: ASUS delivers BIOS/UEFI auto-updates over HTTP with no verification

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that assumes hardware vendors' signature verification code is correct -- and crypto is really hard to get right

You don't need to verify it on the target system though?

You sign at the source with a private key, and you verify on the target with the public key. The trick is only someone with the private key can create a signature that the public key can verify.

Re: ASUS delivers BIOS/UEFI auto-updates over HTTP with no verification

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vehicle manufacturers also have this same mindset issue with their in-vehicle entertainment systems. For them things are either a "recall" or they don't exist, they have no concept of software updates or how to deliver them.

Yep. I find it baffling that people in the tech industry (who should know better) are enthusiastic about vehicle infotainment systems, Apple CarPlay, Android Auto, etc. Keep it simple. Power, a 3.5mm audio connector, and a windshield suction mount. Something they can't screw up too badly. I can easily buy a new smartphone every 2 years, but a car I'm going to hold on to for more like 10. Why would I want to be stuck…

> Why would I want to be stuck with a 5-generation-old navigation/music player system when the car is still fine?

This is EXACTLY why CarPlay and Android Auto make us enthusiastic - the user interface is run and rendered on your phone, not the infotainment unit. The unit just shows a video stream of UI and sends back keystrokes, GPS and other data. Hence updating functionality and applications is in domain of your smartphone not the car or headunit manufacturer.

Re: ASUS delivers BIOS/UEFI auto-updates over HTTP with no verification

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would I want to be stuck with a 5-generation-old navigation/music player system when the car is still fine? Why would you be? Isn't this a solved problem? When you want to upgrade your entertainment system, you head to somewhere like Crutchfield or Sonic or Best Buy and buy a new one to plug in. In many cars, it takes less time to install a new car infotainment unit than it takes to buy a new iPhone from a carr…

What cars are we talking about? Modern cars integrate their entertainment system with a bunch of car-specific features, so it's no longer possible to swap "just the player" unit, like it was possible earlier.

I'm using a Toyota Yaris as an example. All recent models (including the current 2016 model) can be swapped out easily.

With Electric cars / Hybrids, I can see issues since they integrate environmental controls and other stuff in to their radios. I suspect as electric cars become more common, entertainment companies will start building units with support for those features.

Re: ASUS delivers BIOS/UEFI auto-updates over HTTP with no verification

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vehicle manufacturers also have this same mindset issue with their in-vehicle entertainment systems. For them things are either a "recall" or they don't exist, they have no concept of software updates or how to deliver them.

Actually, that's not quite true. I know of at least one manufacturer whose internal commitment is 15 years. HOWEVER, the problem is all the third party interfaces that these systems increasingly leverage. I can pretty much guarantee that Google Maps is not going to be the same 15 years down the road and I very much doubt Google has the interest in supporting something for that period of time. So somewhere down the ro…

And that's why Android Auto (and possibly CarPlay) are just dumb streams from the device to the car infotainment system, and input streams back. The car doesn't need to know what's on screen, and the phone doesn't need to know the capabilities of the infotainment system.

Re: ASUS delivers BIOS/UEFI auto-updates over HTTP with no verification

#157
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find there's a pervasive hardware culture that's at odds with both software and security cultures. Hardware culture involves designing it once, testing it once, setting up the supply chain and production line once, and from then on it's just quality control and marketing: totally a fire-and-forget weapon. That means in a hardware dominated organization, where you sell hardware, revenue is in terms of units sold. An…

Vehicle manufacturers also have this same mindset issue with their in-vehicle entertainment systems. For them things are either a "recall" or they don't exist, they have no concept of software updates or how to deliver them.

That is why Tesla is so awesome. They improve the entire fleet with each update and increase the brand value as a whole.

It took Toyota a long time to build their reputation you'd think other manufactures would do the same WRT software.

Re: ASUS delivers BIOS/UEFI auto-updates over HTTP with no verification

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What cars are we talking about? Modern cars integrate their entertainment system with a bunch of car-specific features, so it's no longer possible to swap "just the player" unit, like it was possible earlier.

I'm using a Toyota Yaris as an example. All recent models (including the current 2016 model) can be swapped out easily. With Electric cars / Hybrids, I can see issues since they integrate environmental controls and other stuff in to their radios. I suspect as electric cars become more common, entertainment companies will start building units with support for those features.

Interesting... Wouldn't think anybody still does it. It's already impossible to do in 5th-gen Camaros, for example (2010-2015). I wouldn't be surprised that other Chevy cars are the same way.

Re: ASUS delivers BIOS/UEFI auto-updates over HTTP with no verification

#159
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. I find it baffling that people in the tech industry (who should know better) are enthusiastic about vehicle infotainment systems, Apple CarPlay, Android Auto, etc. Keep it simple. Power, a 3.5mm audio connector, and a windshield suction mount. Something they can't screw up too badly. I can easily buy a new smartphone every 2 years, but a car I'm going to hold on to for more like 10. Why would I want to be stuck…

> Why would I want to be stuck with a 5-generation-old navigation/music player system when the car is still fine? This is EXACTLY why CarPlay and Android Auto make us enthusiastic - the user interface is run and rendered on your phone, not the infotainment unit. The unit just shows a video stream of UI and sends back keystrokes, GPS and other data. Hence updating functionality and applications is in domain of your sm…

It's certainly better than car specific apps, but I have a hard time believing Android and iOS will be the platforms, and stay similar enough to maintain backwards compatibility, near the end of life of a vehicle rolling off the line today.

Re: ASUS delivers BIOS/UEFI auto-updates over HTTP with no verification

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. I find it baffling that people in the tech industry (who should know better) are enthusiastic about vehicle infotainment systems, Apple CarPlay, Android Auto, etc. Keep it simple. Power, a 3.5mm audio connector, and a windshield suction mount. Something they can't screw up too badly. I can easily buy a new smartphone every 2 years, but a car I'm going to hold on to for more like 10. Why would I want to be stuck…

> Why would I want to be stuck with a 5-generation-old navigation/music player system when the car is still fine? Why would you be? Isn't this a solved problem? When you want to upgrade your entertainment system, you head to somewhere like Crutchfield or Sonic or Best Buy and buy a new one to plug in. In many cars, it takes less time to install a new car infotainment unit than it takes to buy a new iPhone from a carr…

I think this was true for a while in the mid 2000s when radio units were more or less commodotized, but these days the big center console touch screens are deeply integrated with the car. Even settings like engine timings (sport/eco modes), suspension, steering feedback, etc. are a page or two away from the FM radio. Some have HVAC on the same system. There's also integration with steering wheel buttons, and sometimes the instrument cluster is actually a second screen rendered by the radio unit and displays the radio station or driving directions, etc. The FM radio and GPS may be part of the same transceiver package as the GSM "connected car" radio, and the Bluetooth and OnStar/automatic 911 dialing systems may share the same microphone, all running through the radio unit.

You can't just replace it and get identical/better functionality.

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