Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters • Hacker News Board

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#231

Post by allannienhuis » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 2:53 PM UTC

wendallplatform wrote: post #162

> Question, how does Switzerland avoid becoming more polarized country with so many referendum questions each year? I don't know if you're a non-native speaker, but in English the question mark (the '?') shows that something is a question, so you don't need to also literally put 'Question' at the start of your question to make that clear.

I think this is just a turn of phrase - short for 'I have a question: ' No need to be so critical of someone's sentence structure, especially when it's a very clearly articulated one. People don't come here to have their writing analyzed.

Providing a bit of helpful advice to someone who's clearly struggling with the language or mistaken can _sometimes_ be useful, but this just seems to be critical, not helpful at all.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#232

Post by delroth » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 2:55 PM UTC

alexggordon wrote: post #104

stickac wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are completely ignoring the fact that the cost of living is much higher in Zurich than the rest of Europe. (For example, the rent is around 10 times higher than in Prague). But after-all, you are a recruiter, why would anyone expect you to provide unbiased information, right?

I'm the one that downvoted you. Rather than simply insulting s3nnyy, pull out some numbers to justify your statement. I suspect s3nnyy is not hiding information, but rather saying the quality of life is worth it. However, it looks like the numbers are pretty comparable. In Germany a software engineer will average 47,500[0] euros a year. judging by this answer[1] I'm guessing your take home is going to be about 28,000…

One notable thing here is that even if the proportions are the same, in the end the absolute amount of money you are putting in your savings every month is higher. Or, in other words, if you're going in vacation in a less expensive country, your purchasing power is doubled.

96,500CHF is also a fairly conservative estimate. If you work at e.g. Google, you can reasonably expect twice that amount after 2-3 years working there (factoring in bonuses and stock). The tax rate is also lower compared to Germany, especially when you reach larger sums of money.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#233

Post by tptacek » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 2:56 PM UTC

etatoby wrote: post #198

kuschku wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buying a house with land in a city is a very american thing – which is why the focus on a small condo is a lot more realistic. Imagine a city with everyone living in a small house with land, it’d be impossible to live in, as the distances would be far too large.

I think even in the US nobody really buys a house (with land) in the city, but in the suburbs. Big difference and much more similar to the 1 hour drive discussed above.

Most of Chicago, the third-largest city in the US, is single-family houses with yards. For that matter, when I lived in San Francisco back in 99-2001, I had a yard.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#234

Post by CuriousSkeptic » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 2:58 PM UTC

alva wrote: post #161

mamon wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Populism is just another name for the very basic feature of democracy: giving everyone the right to vote means that the country is effectively governed by idiots, because they always outnumber smart, reasonable people.

Not sure if being sarcastic or not. Do you believe that holds up on a purely statistical basis?

Easily! First we can agree that about 50% of the population has an IQ below 100. Let's call them idiots for the arguments sake. Then remaining 50% will most certainly have different views on things, let's say we can agree that at least another 10% have views so radically different from ours that we can call them idiots. That's at least 60% idiots rights there. QED

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#235

Post by anoplus » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 2:58 PM UTC

Let me start by saying this is one of the most important topics to discuss.

I would argue that UBI itself will have unexpectingly positive effect on productivity by removing the bias causing people to justify unnecessary work because they need to make a living. This will give individuals the confidence to take the time and pursue further more value for society. There will always be laziness, of-course, but we try to achieve freedom for a change.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#236

Post by HillaryBriss » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 2:58 PM UTC

rs999gti wrote: post #175

akerro wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And on the opposite, I never understood how people can not own a house and waste money on renting for decades. Where market for houses in western countries is very limited due to stupid regulations and every year a few millions of people move to that country causing renting prices to increase by XX% each year. It decreases my financial stability. Losing a job for less than a month is a financial disaster, I still to…

> waste money on renting How is renting wasting money? Are you not living in the unit? You're gaining 100% benefit by paying rent and receiving a roof over your head. You must mean a waste by losing out on building equity? That's a crap shoot in itself. A hot housing market and equity can go into the toilet at anytime due to very irrational market conditions. Look at the housing markets of Las Vegas or Miami for exam…

Yeah. It's market-specific, to be sure. Homes in the Western US markets, especially California, have risen at a quick pace, in part because of zoning laws which prevent cheap expansion of the overall housing inventory.

Another important reason homeownership pays off well for many is that the investment is leveraged.

Also, in the US, entities like Fannie Mae combined with tax deductions amount to a government subsidy for home buyers. You can borrow $400K to buy a house at a very attractive interest rate and, on top of that, claim a tax deduction for the interest payments. But what rate will you get if you want to borrow $400K to place a leveraged bet on the price of gold or oil or Apple stock?

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#237

Post by ZoeZoeBee » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 2:59 PM UTC

illumen wrote: post #219

vixen99 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if you think that pro-immigration movements can be inflamed, reflexive, unthinking and possibly offensive? Actually they do not need to be because there's been a fait accompli in that at least one million immigrants have entered Germany on the basis of what appears to be the say-so of one woman. Discussion is over! This isn't the context for a rebuttal of your suggestion that unfounded accusations abound reg…

""" I wonder if you think that pro-immigration movements can be inflamed, reflexive, unthinking and possibly offensive? Actually they do not need to be because there's been a fait accompli in that at least one million immigrants have entered Germany on the basis of what appears to be the say-so of one woman. Discussion is over! This isn't the context for a rebuttal of your suggestion that unfounded accusations abound…

A few things.

1) Sweden has been importing North African and Middle Eastern people's since the early 1970s in a concerted effort to shore up their Demographic issues. https://swedenreport.org/immigration-3/

2) Sweden made it a crime to question the Immigration Policies of the Government. http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4972/sweden-free-speech

3) The last time they reported rapes by nationalities those born in a foreign country or born to a foreign parent accounted for over 70% of all rapes. http://www.pdf-archive.com/2011/05/08/br-1996-2-invandrares-...

4) Growth rate averaging less than 1% over the last 2 years is nothing to crow about. http://www.tradingeconomics.com/sweden/gdp-growth

5) The quickest way to put the fascists in power is to demonize the truth, because the truth does get out eventually

Edit: These are all true it's quite Hacker Newsy to down vote the truth rather than provide a factual rebuttal, sources are there for you to read. And as far as fascism

>Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism[1][2] that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe, influenced by national syndicalism.

If you do not understand how attempting to quell factual conversations, results in the people searching for solutions, which results in the rise of the ultra-right wing, I invite you to look at who was voted seats in Germany in the most recent election and who's leading in Denmark, it will only grow. There are unintended consequences to the policies implemented by many of the EU governments which are now beginning to surface

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#238

Post by pipio21 » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 2:59 PM UTC

areyoucrazy wrote: post #184

Why is Basic Income such a popular topic on Hacker News?

I believe it is probably because most people here are programmers.

If you are a wildly successful programmer you are automating the work of others, and putting them out of job.

Most of them though are working for the man and dream of a world in which they are free to do whatever they want, their dream job, without the risk that is involved on it (not being able to support yourself and your family).

So what they ask for is a "safety Net" that dilutes the risks onto others.

It did not work in the past, with communism, but they believe with the advances in automation, it could work today.

Personally I believe in "testing everything" before actually doing it.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#239

Post by raverbashing » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 2:59 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #203

raverbashing wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good. I suggest you go to your local animal shelter and adopt a cat. But then you'll be favouring one over the other. Even better, adopt all the cats they have there, lest you support unfair collective punishment.

A better analogy would be that I adopt a cat and threaten people with violence for adopting the other cats. I didn't say an employer must hire all (or any) anyone. I just said that if a Canadian is willing to pay a Tamil to cook her food, we shouldn't threaten these people with violence to prevent them from engaging in this peaceful trade. In any case, taking as a given your previous premises (that unfair protectioni…

I think it's so funny that you're implying I'm racist, but I guess that's what happens when they are firmly rooted in their biased convictions

I'll just add that as a note, Canadians are the worse case of "I'm not racist, but" that I've ever seen.

Canadian immigration process is severely biased towards things like education level, criminal background and language knowledge. So unfair, right?!

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#240

Post by reitanqild » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 2:59 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #183

riprowan wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard it said that real estate is a risky investment. On the other hand, it's really hard to raise a family of four in a mutual fund.

I don't understand what you mean. Raise a family of four on a mutual fund? Why do you feel that you need a mortgage in order to raise a family of four? Why not rent?

It's kind of a joke or a proverb I guess since both houses and funds are investments with a certain risk but houses also double as a place where you and your family can live ;-)