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A Guaranteed Income for Every American

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Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#231
The choice for the surtax is perverse: a major point of having a UBI as opposed to means-tested social benefit program is to maintain the marginal benefit of additional income; having a "surtax" that reduces the benefit progressively with income that kicks in at a fairly low income level and proceeds to increase up to a level that's still not a high income is a fairly horrible idea that defeats key elements of the basic idea of a UBI.

I'm not a fan of radical big-bang all-at-once UBI replacing other programs swap anyway (favoring a UBI tied to a dedicated revenue stream that displaces means-tested benefit programs as it ramps up, instead) but even among big-bang implementations this is particularly poorly designed.

(1) The "surtax", as discussed above.

(2) Because it relies on electronic deposit to a bank account, it relies on (but does not provide) a solution to the problem of the unbanked.

(3) The decision to apply it only to adults is dubious, but if you are going to have an age-qualified UBI, it should apply at a minimum to all legal adults -- everyone over 18.

(4) The benefit (after deducting the required health insurance purchase, which for those with no other income simply replaces Medicaid, which is eliminated [0]) is below poverty level. Which would make sense as an initial condition of a UBI which was built to grow over time, but this proposal doesn't appear to be -- its a proposal, therefore, to maintain, rather than alleviate, poverty.

(5) Apparently, the author prefers to fund the UBI for everyone largely by continuing the existing regressive, labor-pays-only, payroll taxes (Medicare is flat, Social Security is flat up to a limit, and then capped, making it -- and overall payroll taxes -- regressive overall), whose current regressive structure (including the flat structure of Medicare) is justified based on the idea that they are buy-ins to benefit programs that provide consistent (Medicare) or capped, contribution-determined (Social Security) benefits. Aside from there being no sane rationale that would justify this, it entirely eliminates UBI's utility as a system to help adapt the economy to deal with progressive automation and the dynamics of the labor market moving toward a larger pool of jobs that have lower returns and a narrowing highly (and increasingly-highly) paid pool of elite workers. Moral issues aside, payroll tax structure can't support the author's proposed UBI going forward.

Then again, I suspect that's the author's intent: kill Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, etc., and replace them with something that cannot function in the long term. After all, this is a proposal for a social transfer program from an author who has written an entire book setting out supposedly universal laws that each individually (and, a fortiori, all combined) supposedly justify the conclusion that all social transfers are inherenty harmful and should be eliminated.

[0] The author indicates the healthcare component is too complex to discuss in the article, but this is also a particularly worrying component. Looking at what $3,000 gets you on the health insurance market, this mandatory insurance purchase replacing Medicaid might make the poorest of the poor significantly worse off by itself.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The price of everything would rise proportionally to the amount of consumption added to the economy - for example, if you funded this entirely by printing money, you'd get a combination of inflation and an equal amount of money going to everyone, causing a redistribution effect on its own. e.g. if you gave everyone $10,000 of newly-printed money, inflation would be very high, but unless it's 100% or more (doubtful) a…

If you funded this with taxes (presumably on the wealthy) wouldn't you likewise see a deflationary affect on luxury goods?

Only if the tax was so much higher than they're paying now that it would meaningfully impact their spending, which it wouldn't be.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it won't. The $10,000 left after the mandatory health payments would be a cut for many social security recipients, and many of those same people are also probably getting more than $3,000 a year in health care out of Medicare. Similar problems with Medicaid, it's worth a lot more than $3,000 to the people that are getting it (mostly because children). This is basically taking the desire to cut entitlement progr…

> The $10,000 left after the mandatory health payments would be a cut for many social security recipients The easy way to do this is to give people a one-time election between social security and the basic income, so that nobody can object that they're not better off. Anybody who isn't at or close to retirement will choose the basic income because it begins paying immediately, the lifetime payments are higher and the…

> It seems like your argument is that we can't do it because there are a relatively small number of people who would be better off under the existing system. But by that logic we could never change anything, even if the net benefits are very large, as long as there is anyone who is better off under the status quo.

I think this is an incredibly unfair and callous assessment of what's going on with catastrophic health care coverage. It's not about "the relatively small number of people who would be better off under the existing system." It's about the relatively small number people who are alive under the existing system who would be dead under the proposed one.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#234
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood why subsidies like this almost always come with income phaseouts. What's wrong with giving everyone a basic income? People who make a lot of money would more than repay it in taxes, and taxes would have to go up on higher earners, but that's not a real problem.

> People who make a lot of money would more than repay it in taxes, and taxes would have to go up on higher earners Doesn't that amount to the same thing?

The difference is you have to make more money first.

"Phase out" means middle income people receive lower benefits in exchange for higher income people paying lower taxes. It's just a code word for screwing over the middle class.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#235
post #61
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI isn't a plausible replacement for those, because extreme medical care, and care for the disabled, is priced so far out of range with the rest. I expect part of the steps towards UBI to involve further evolution of our systems for allocating those resources.

But insurance for those isn't.

Consider someone at the edges of the distribution of healthiness: say, someone born with severe mental and physical disabilities. A universal basic income will never take sufficient care of this person; his or her medical care will cost much much more than average, and there will be medically necessary non-medical care as well. I think we'd like to socialize those costs, using something like SSDI.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite: Consider a society with 2 members, Mr Rich (net worth $10M) and Mr. Poor (net worth $100). Mr. Rich is 100,000 X richer than Mr. Poor right now. Institute a ridiculous UBI of $1M/year for everyone. At the end of the year, Mr. Poor has $1,000,100 and Mr Rich has $11M but Mr Rich is now only ~ 11 X richer than Mr Poor. Now sure cheeseburgers at Micky-D's are now $700 but the fact has changed that before, Mr…

What are the pros and cons of this economic gravitational force?

Well that's the question, isn't it. What are the (un)intended consequences of forced leveling of inequality? Especially automatic and predictable forced leveling.

Right now, it seems that Mr. Rich eats as many burgers as he wants (which isn't many really) while all of the Mr. Poors who would be happy to eat them if they could afford them, and happy to make them if someone would buy them (and then could afford to eat them themselves) sit around hungry because there's a recession donchaknow.

Its almost as if the mass of Mr. Rich's on-paper money is blocking the natural signalling between the makers and the eaters so the cycle jams up. It seems like something that needs fixing. So how?

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#237
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a UBI scheme. That's just welfare.

The article proposes that we replace welfare programs, social security, etc, with this UBI. Then, at some point, it says this: Government agencies are the worst of all mechanisms for dealing with human needs. They are necessarily bound by rules applied uniformly to people who have the same problems on paper but who will respond differently to different forms of help. Whether religious or secular, nongovernmental orga…

> I find it ironic that this individual is for the so called UBI.

Why do you find it ironic? UBI gives people money without telling them what to do with it. It lets the market (i.e. the people) decide what they need instead of the government.

For example, you can imagine a shelter that will provide food, housing and services for the disabled in exchange for their UBI, which doesn't cover the entire cost but covers most of it and the rest is covered by donations.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#238
I feel surrounded by total idiots. None of the math adds up... Cost of living is not considered at all. I'm not against the basic idea but the proposals are beyond half-baked - they're idiotic. I get the feeling nobody writing this UBI stuff has any experience or understanding of the welfare systems they're aiming to replace.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The $10,000 left after the mandatory health payments would be a cut for many social security recipients The easy way to do this is to give people a one-time election between social security and the basic income, so that nobody can object that they're not better off. Anybody who isn't at or close to retirement will choose the basic income because it begins paying immediately, the lifetime payments are higher and the…

> It seems like your argument is that we can't do it because there are a relatively small number of people who would be better off under the existing system. But by that logic we could never change anything, even if the net benefits are very large, as long as there is anyone who is better off under the status quo. I think this is an incredibly unfair and callous assessment of what's going on with catastrophic health…

The UBI proposal in the article (one I find pretty weak, and I'm a huge proponent of UBI) is that you're getting $10k plus healthcare. So there's that.

But.

There is no part of the proposal that covers making sure coverage is equal in value to Medicare - in a private market I'm betting benefits start getting cut post-haste. UBI without universal healthcare is a nightmare, and is all but privatizing Medicare. Surprise!

Also, since children under 18 don't get UBI, they would have to be covered by their parents' $3k/annual buy. But again, privatized "universal" healthcare? No thanks.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More doctors will actually lead to lower prices It might if we had a free market for healthcare and if providers were the largest healthcare expense. But we don't, and they're not. Providers' take-home pay only amounts to about 10% of healthcare spending nationally[0]. Furthermore, the reason we don't have a competitive market is entirely due to the payer situation, not the providers. Providers (particularly hospit…

Are salaries a good measure of the income of doctors? I've read that more than half of doctors are self employed, and I suspect that their ownership stake in medical businesses produces a good portion of their incomes.

It's the other way around. As of recently, the majority of doctors are salaried (employed), not in private practice.

The numbers I cite correspond to the practice revenues, but as much as half of what doctors in private practice receive in reimbursements goes to practice expenses and insurance.

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