Muhammad Ali has died • Hacker News Board

Re: Muhammad Ali has died

#151

Post by dang » Sat, Jun 04, 2016, 7:09 PM UTC

braythwayt wrote: post #124

c3477372 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do leftists love him or hate him? On the one hand there is that quote you just posted, but on the other there is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1Y693cSF7E

Crazy idea, but maybe there are individual people that have a spectrum of political and social beliefs that don’t neatly fit into “left” and “right.” Maybe the world isn’t so starkly bipartisan as you suggest. And maybe such people have a variety of complex feelings about people that don’t neatly fit into “love” and “hate.” Maybe, just maybe, binary thinking is the exact opposite of being a Hacker. Maybe it’s a crutc…

> binary thinking is the exact opposite of being a Hacker

Would that were true, but I fear that all those 0s and 1s pattern our brains in even more intensely binary a way.

Re: Muhammad Ali has died

#152

Post by EpicEng » Sat, Jun 04, 2016, 7:15 PM UTC

adnam wrote: post #125

ceyhunkazel wrote: post #63

He is a man who have a heart that bigger than his fists. “Why should they ask me to put on a uniform and go 10,000 miles from home and drop bombs and bullets on Brown people in Vietnam while so-called Negro people in Louisville are treated like dogs and denied simple human rights? No I’m not going 10,000 miles from home to help murder and burn another poor nation simply to continue the domination of white slave maste…

Well he also said that Jews are devils, the mixing of the races is an abomination and that homosexuality is a white man’s disease.

>said that Jews are devils

Not quite, but you're right; he was far from perfect. He cheated on his wife numerous times as well, and many of his views changed as he grew older.

I think we can look up to what he did right and still acknowledge that he was flawed like the rest of us. I hope no one judges me solely by the things I did when I was in my twenties.

Re: Muhammad Ali has died

#153

Post by kelukelugames » Sat, Jun 04, 2016, 7:15 PM UTC

meira wrote: post #88

hartpuff wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ali wasn't "allowed" anything. He lost his livelihood for roughly a third of his athletic prime for standing up for his beliefs. He faced constant racism and bigotry. Joe Frazier supported Ali financially when he was unable to box and supported the restoration of Ali's licence. "The greatest" [sic], who for reasons you have stated should have been more aware than most about racism and abuse, paid back this great fr…

And here we have classic white male tears.

Many people have commented on the misogyny and racism on tech forums like HN. However, calling it out on HN gets you banned from HN.

Re: Muhammad Ali has died

#154

Post by EpicEng » Sat, Jun 04, 2016, 7:16 PM UTC

hartpuff wrote: post #146

kelukelugames wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The full quote refers to all whites. I agree it is inappropriate by today's standards, but a black man saying whites are the devil in 1969? I mean...

Ali's friend, Malcolm X, hardly an "Uncle Tom" - as Ali disgracefully called another friend he betrayed, Joe Frazier - had turned away from the anti-white racism of the NOI by the early 60s (and been killed by the NOI as a result), so what's so special about 1969 that excuses a supposedly intelligent man continuing to mindlessly parrot their inane racist beliefs?

He had been treated poorly by whites his entire life. I'm sure you can appreciate how that would affect a person. He was also very young and became more tempered as he grew older.

Re: Muhammad Ali has died

#155

Post by kelukelugames » Sat, Jun 04, 2016, 7:17 PM UTC

hhw wrote: post #80

hartpuff wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ali wasn't "allowed" anything. He lost his livelihood for roughly a third of his athletic prime for standing up for his beliefs. He faced constant racism and bigotry. Joe Frazier supported Ali financially when he was unable to box and supported the restoration of Ali's licence. "The greatest" [sic], who for reasons you have stated should have been more aware than most about racism and abuse, paid back this great fr…

Ali also turned his back on Malcom X: http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2016/02/25/467247668/...

From the same article, "One of Ali's greatest regrets — and he said as much — is that he never patched things up with Malcolm, that he never told Malcolm how important he was to him."

Re: Muhammad Ali has died

#156

Post by rconti » Sat, Jun 04, 2016, 7:32 PM UTC

n72 wrote: post #75

elcapitan wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he's correct in the choice of the word "allowed" - yes, he had to fight for his beliefs, very hard fights, but he lived in a society that still valued individual struggle and determination, and that in the end rewarded it with success. Otherwise he couldn't have achieved what he has achieved. It's at least debatable if in today's softer world somebody who gets out and tells everybody that he's the greatest wo…

"somebody who gets out and tells everybody that he's the greatest would still be "allowed" to earn reputation that way" Golden age fallacy? Off the top of my head, here are few people who fit that description in various ways and who seem to be doing quite well, despite today's "softer world": Donald Trump, Kanye West, Peter Thiel Also, softer world? He faced constant death threats. Also: "Almost as quickly as Ali had…

Richard Sherman comes to mind.

Re: Muhammad Ali has died

#157

Post by kelukelugames » Sat, Jun 04, 2016, 7:42 PM UTC

braythwayt wrote: post #147

adnam wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well he also said that Jews are devils, the mixing of the races is an abomination and that homosexuality is a white man’s disease.

Upvoted. This is an important thing to acknowledge about “heroes” and “role models.” People are complicated. Their relationship with the society that shaped them is complicated, their relationship with society fifty, one hundred, or centuries later is even more complicated. I do not excuse Muhammad Ali’s views on certain subjects because he was amazing in other respects. I don’t give an overall score. I admire and re…

I want to add one thing. People change their views. For example, the majority of the US population went from against to pro marriage equality. Washington never would have altered his views on slavery, because society did not evolve during his lifetime. However, much changed in Ali's lifetime. He might no longer believe the things he said in his 20s. I hope no one judges me by all of the stupid things I said in my 20s.

Re: Muhammad Ali has died

#158

Post by update » Sat, Jun 04, 2016, 7:53 PM UTC

hartpuff wrote: post #146

kelukelugames wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The full quote refers to all whites. I agree it is inappropriate by today's standards, but a black man saying whites are the devil in 1969? I mean...

Ali's friend, Malcolm X, hardly an "Uncle Tom" - as Ali disgracefully called another friend he betrayed, Joe Frazier - had turned away from the anti-white racism of the NOI by the early 60s (and been killed by the NOI as a result), so what's so special about 1969 that excuses a supposedly intelligent man continuing to mindlessly parrot their inane racist beliefs?

I don't know about Frazier, but on Malcolm X, Ali said:

Ali: Turning my back on Malcolm was one of the mistakes that I regret most in my life. I wish I’d been able to tell Malcolm I was sorry, that he was right about so many things. But he was killed before I got the chance. He was a visionary ahead of us all.

…I might never have become a Muslim if it hadn’t been for Malcolm. If I could go back and do it over again, I would never have turned my back on him.

Re: Muhammad Ali has died

#159

Post by nemothekid » Sat, Jun 04, 2016, 7:57 PM UTC

elcapitan wrote: post #62

slg wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ali wasn't "allowed" anything. He lost his livelihood for roughly a third of his athletic prime for standing up for his beliefs. He faced constant racism and bigotry. He was viewed as a bad guy by most of the country for much of his early career. Many people even refused to call him Muhammad Ali including other African American boxers. He persevered and became popular through shear will, determination, charisma, and…

I think he's correct in the choice of the word "allowed" - yes, he had to fight for his beliefs, very hard fights, but he lived in a society that still valued individual struggle and determination, and that in the end rewarded it with success. Otherwise he couldn't have achieved what he has achieved. It's at least debatable if in today's softer world somebody who gets out and tells everybody that he's the greatest wo…

>but he lived in a society that still valued individual struggle and determination

If you believe throwing someone in Jail at the prime of his career, on top of other atrocities he fought through his career while he had to stand up for himself is "society valuing individual struggle and determination", then I believe you need to sit down and open a dictionary. This is some amazing revisionist history.

Re: Muhammad Ali has died

#160

Post by iconjack » Sat, Jun 04, 2016, 8:07 PM UTC

adnam wrote: post #125

ceyhunkazel wrote: post #63

He is a man who have a heart that bigger than his fists. “Why should they ask me to put on a uniform and go 10,000 miles from home and drop bombs and bullets on Brown people in Vietnam while so-called Negro people in Louisville are treated like dogs and denied simple human rights? No I’m not going 10,000 miles from home to help murder and burn another poor nation simply to continue the domination of white slave maste…

Well he also said that Jews are devils, the mixing of the races is an abomination and that homosexuality is a white man’s disease.

I think if give the conversation where these came from another listen, you'll agree that your summary of his statements doesn't really capture the truth of the man.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tyad99ncEp0