Salary Negotiation • Hacker News Board

Re: Salary Negotiation

#301

Post by dlubarov » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 9:16 PM UTC

teen wrote: post #291

dlubarov wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say if you're in SV, have a pretty good background, interview at top-paying public firms like Google/Facebook, get good scores, and negotiate very well, you can expect around - new grad: ~175k - 4 years: ~300k - 6 years: ~350k Note that I'm including equity, expected cash bonuses, 401k matching, and sign-on bonuses (which I normally divide by 4, since 4 years seems like a typical period to stay at these companies…

the 4/6 year ones are way too high unless you're going for some sort of specific role they need. like if you specialize in robotics or machine learning

The 4 year number is mostly from my own experience. I interviewed recently, and my highest offers (after significant negotiation) were

  ~316k from a public company
  290k~350k from a private company, depending on which valuation you use (409a vs preferred)

Again, this is including equity, expected cash bonuses, etc. I have 4~5 years experience and no unique skills.

The key is to get at least 2-3 offers around the same time, do a lot of research, and be mindful about what info you share when negotiating. When a recruiter asks about salary expectations, I think it's good to share a number, but it could be your current salary, a competing offer, or just a (substantially high) target number. And it could be base salary, or blended compensation. Share the bits of info which are most advantageous to you, and keep the rest private.

The new grad and 8 year numbers are from some info friends have shared with me, and some public info (like the spreadsheet that appeared on HN a while ago, and some info individuals have shared on Quora).

Re: Salary Negotiation

#302

Post by Tactic » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 9:19 PM UTC

BuckRogers wrote: post #264

Tactic wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my mind not naming your number first is advise given only if you are trying to maximize the negotiation. And even then it is quite debatable. I view it instead that I am offering a service. I am well aware of what my service is worth, what my financial needs are and what amount would make me feel satisfied with what I am being paid. So I tell them that number. I also tell them that the number is only negotiable in…

Everyone is talking about this but no one is saying it: how much are your services worth in general? Would you share? Anyone is welcome to answer, not just Tactic. I'm just curious. I'll go first. I know developers that make 70 a year and some that make 120. It does depend where you live of course, but for me personally I need 90K minimum or I won't consider any gig, anywhere. If I can't get that, I go into subsisten…

Myself I'm worth about $120k given my experience, the market I'm in and what is standard for benefits in my area. (Minneapolis/St. Paul) And I have had no issue with that.

The key to me on top of that is that I am satisfied with that salary. It is not one that would make me look elsewhere with any urgency. Yes, I could try to negotiate more, but I feel no need to and believe that if I got more the company would be paying over market value and eventually realize and act upon that.

It sounds to me like you would be comfortable making around $100k and that if the market bears that for your services that is what you should demand. If the market doesn't support that for you, look at raising skills/experience until it does.

The odd thing is how much more you make by switching jobs versus a salary raise at companies. I am typically offered a 3%-5% raise but have typically increased my pay by 10%-20% by looking elsewhere. Companies really should assess the market more often.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#303

Post by nunez » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 9:20 PM UTC

swombat wrote: post #5

We're really trying to nail a good way to deal with salary negotiations when onboarding people, at GrantTree - one that gets out of this "gotcha" approach to salary. So far the best we've figured out is to be the first ones to name a number, and be super-transparent about how we arrived at that number. The reasoning is that "in a salary negotiation the first person to quote a number loses", so since we (as the employ…

The problem with this approach is that no matter how transparent you are or what numbers/ranges/data you give, the candidates on the other end will always think you're taking them for a trip. It's the same problem that car salespeople at "no-hassle" or "no-haggle" dealerships deal with. Even though they really cannot budge on their out-the-door price, you'll still have tons of people trying to eat at their already minimal profit margin.

I'm not sure that there is an individual solution to this problem. EVERY company (or most companies) would have to be ultra-transparent about their salaries before people can trust something like this, which works against how a lot of high-profile companies currently compensate (i.e. fixed salary ranges, highly variable bonuses)

Re: Salary Negotiation

#304

Post by ugh123 » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 9:22 PM UTC

jkempe11 wrote: post #217

whack wrote: post #139

I've heard this "don't name a number first" advice so many times, but personally, it never seems to work. My current comp is significantly higher compared to others with my level of experience. So when I refuse to give a number, the recruiter ends up guessing a number that is significantly lower, and making a lowball offer. I've also had many other experiences where after many hours of interviews, I find out that the…

I am a recruiter and I will tell you this: you should abandon this advice, for certain. It's funny - probably the best advice anyone ever gives on negotiation is exactly the opposite of "don't name a number first." It's "anchor high." You should be anchoring to a number that is high but realistic, and negotiating from a position of strength. This is especially true for senior- and late-career individuals who have som…

I avoid giving a number early on in conversations. Rather than naming a number, I like to 'seed' the conversation with talk about market rate, 'premium' on top of that, and similar phrases to move them in the right direction.

Establishing a position of strength can also mean other things like having the company and hiring manager invest as much time as they can in recruiting you; not hiring would be worse to them than over paying a little.

Also, having other offers on the table always helps negotiating better. Even if its never mentioned to the recruiter I just happen to negotiate better with the mindset that I have other options.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#305

Post by orbitur » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 9:26 PM UTC

brianwawok wrote: post #56

swombat wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither. We're a purposeful, for-profit, founder-owned[1] company. Just because we are for-profit doesn't mean profit is our only motivation. It's a false dichotomy to suggest that because you want to make money that must be your only driver. Our view of business is that, much like humans, it can achieve and balance multiple objectives. You want to make money: does that mean you want only that to the exclusion of or…

So why would I accept less money from you than my market rate, so that you, the founder, can make more money? At the end of the day there is 1 pie, why should I donate part of my pie to you?

You would accept if:

- You're not broke

- You think the work would be more interesting/fulfilling than places that pay more.

Of course, I'm sure there's a tipping point where you don't care how interesting the work is. But in my mind you'd use the above criteria if someone is offering you $95k/yr when you're currently pulling $110k/yr.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#306

Post by marssaxman » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 9:28 PM UTC

green_lunch wrote: post #102

tyre wrote: post #90

Two things we have done to fix the waste of time, human energy, and shenanigans around salaries: 1) Post salaries with job descriptions. (e.g. seneca.systems/careers/growth/go-to-market-strategist-product-marketer) 2) Pin salaries to job position[1]. We do not allow individuals to negotiate their salary separately from their position. If you have the same position, you make the same salary. [1]: https://github.com/Se…

"We do not allow individuals to negotiate their salary separately from their position. If you have the same position, you make the same salary." This is great from a company perspective, but it essentially allows a company to get an employee at a much cheaper rate. Employees with more experience will get the same pay rate for the same job as someone with potentially much less. Since all companies don't do this, I pro…

I can't make any sense out of your argument. How on earth does this drive away people with experience?

I know what I can do and I know how much money I want to make. A company advertising a job with a salary attached would get some bonus points in my evaluation just because of their honesty and willingness to step out of the bullshit negotiation game, but I'd also know up front whether their expectations corresponded with mine. I'd only apply if it sounded like a reasonable offer, and if it sounded like a reasonable offer, why should I hesitate to apply?

Your perspective must be very different from mine, because I am totally failing to see this from a point of view where I can make your words make sense.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#307

Post by te » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 9:28 PM UTC

dlubarov wrote: post #301

teen wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the 4/6 year ones are way too high unless you're going for some sort of specific role they need. like if you specialize in robotics or machine learning

The 4 year number is mostly from my own experience. I interviewed recently, and my highest offers (after significant negotiation) were ~316k from a public company 290k~350k from a private company, depending on which valuation you use (409a vs preferred) Again, this is including equity, expected cash bonuses, etc. I have 4~5 years experience and no unique skills. The key is to get at least 2-3 offers around the same t…

How did you value the options?

Re: Salary Negotiation

#308

Post by dlubarov » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 9:33 PM UTC

te wrote: post #307

dlubarov wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 4 year number is mostly from my own experience. I interviewed recently, and my highest offers (after significant negotiation) were ~316k from a public company 290k~350k from a private company, depending on which valuation you use (409a vs preferred) Again, this is including equity, expected cash bonuses, etc. I have 4~5 years experience and no unique skills. The key is to get at least 2-3 offers around the same t…

How did you value the options?

I didn't have any offers involving options. The ~316k offer involved public stock, and the 290k~350k offer involved private RSUs. 290k is using the company's 409a price and 350k is using their preferred share price.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#309

Post by LoSboccacc » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 9:33 PM UTC

tedmiston wrote: post #278

nissimk wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a simple heuristic that's worked well for me: look at all of the job ads online for similar roles in the same city. Most will not name numbers. Find the highest listed number (top of range) in all of those ads and add 20%. That is a place where you will not be selling yourself short. You may not be maximizing your comp, but you will be above the average. Just understand this may disqualify you from jobs where…

You might be able to compare salaries like that, but cross comparing equity is much more difficult.

yeah but equity * likely outcome is going to be comparable to a lottery ticket, not hard cash, unless you are 100% sure you can pick startup winners, and if you can why aren't you just into the funding market making 1000x than a developer per year?

Re: Salary Negotiation

#310

Post by dandandan » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 9:36 PM UTC

swombat wrote: post #230

15155 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take Buffer, for instance: their salary information is "transparent." Consequently, since they've eliminated the possibility for negotiation, I will never approach them for prospective employment. A "master" engineer taking low equity living/working in SF only makes ~$155k: no thanks. https://buffer.com/salary?r=1&l=10&e=3&q=1 In my humble opinion: this kind of hiring strategy rewards low performers who get lucky and…

This is a fantastic side-effect of transparent cultures and salary structure: people like you who, for reasons good or bad, do not want to work in this kind of environment, don't apply. You may believe that sets you apart as an "A player" and means we only hire B players. I believe the concept of A players and B players is false, and have discussed this here: http://danieltenner.com/2014/09/11/there-are-no-b-players/…

Does "people like you" mean individuals who want to be compensated appropriately? How much can the transparency of an organization be valued at?