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Salary Negotiation

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Re: Salary Negotiation

#271

Post by tedmiston »

Tactic wrote: post #205
whack wrote: post #139

I've heard this "don't name a number first" advice so many times, but personally, it never seems to work. My current comp is significantly higher compared to others with my level of experience. So when I refuse to give a number, the recruiter ends up guessing a number that is significantly lower, and making a lowball offer. I've also had many other experiences where after many hours of interviews, I find out that the…

In my mind not naming your number first is advise given only if you are trying to maximize the negotiation. And even then it is quite debatable. I view it instead that I am offering a service. I am well aware of what my service is worth, what my financial needs are and what amount would make me feel satisfied with what I am being paid. So I tell them that number. I also tell them that the number is only negotiable in…

> I refuse to see the relationship with an employer as adversarial. It is a business relationship, I treat it as such and demand they do as well. Otherwise I don't do business with them.

Negotiating doesn't have to be adversarial. There are multiple strategies you could take to boost yourself without being adversarial.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#272

Post by throwawoah »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #265
mehrdada wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You should be anchoring to a number that is high but realistic, and negotiating from a position of strength. I very much agree with you and my other comments in this thread are very much advocating for this position. I'd just like to add an important caveat by saying anecdotally in multiple occasions I've seen friends (notably people who are just moving in to the Valley from elsewhere and/or right out of college) t…

Want to name some numbers? Ideally with context. I'd like to know how high is high in SV. Especially for junior positions.

24 y.o college grad software engineer at "Big Tech" company in the valley.

Started at 107.5k with promotion and raise to 120k

Re: Salary Negotiation

#273

Post by tedmiston »

designtofly wrote: post #197
carc wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A person with some fixed 'value' X can be worth much higher to one company than some other company. In fact that is extremely common. Value is relative here so I completely disagree with your "a professional knows their value" sentiment.

I don't understand your argument. I never said any value is fixed. Of course a person's value changes from role to role and from company to company. Part of doing your research is understanding the pain points for the company and the value you bring by fixing those pain points. If you disagree with "a professional knows their value," what are you arguing? That "a professional doesn't know their value?"

> If you disagree with "a professional knows their value," what are you arguing? That "a professional doesn't know their value?"

A professional might know their value abstractly or concretely to some companies, but in general value is relative to the company's needs, funding, and priorities. The recruiter has too many data points that you don't have to argue that going in with a fixed number is wise.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#274

Post by swombat »

TrickedOut wrote: post #52
swombat wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is worth any intrinsic amount. The amount is relative to the work they do, the industry they're in, the state of the economy, how many other people can do that job, how many have actually applied, etc. Any salary formula is entirely arbitrary. We have a pay scale simply because it is a useful tool for conversation, not because it represents any sort of intrinsic property of the person being placed on the pay s…

Nice. Spoken like either 1. A trust fund kiddie with privileges to work for pleasure 2. An older person who purchased their family home before they started costing 3M$

Try again: 3. a couple of migrants from Romania and Poland with no starting wealth, living in a flat that we couldn't even afford to pay for (but my cofounder on the previous business, which bombed, basically let me stay in his flat on the promise that I'd pay when I had the cash) back when we started GrantTree. Add onto that that my parents fled Romania in 1980 with nothing and I was stateless until about age 12.

There are many, many people starting from far worse conditions, though, I'm not complaining. I had a stable childhood, a good education and I have great friends and parents and an amazing wife and cofounder. That's worth way more than any trust fund or inflated property.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#275

Post by tedmiston »

designtofly wrote: post #219
brazzledazzle wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they're arguing that you can't really be sure how valuable you are to a company since there's a significant amount of information disparity. Given your typical company that doesn't discuss much about internal issues or pain points publicly how do you do that research needed to understand those things?

Fair point--you have no idea what happens behind closed doors and what the available budgets are. And you never will. Perhaps the hiring manager decided they are willing to pay 2x the market rate because their pain is quite high. But how likely is it, due to your refusal to name a number, that the company is going to reveal the top of their range? So, yes, there is an information disparity. But I still think that ref…

> But how likely is it, due to your refusal to name a number, that the company is going to reveal the top of their range?

Well, in the podcast, he mentions that this one action is part of a larger strategy. The goal of it isn't to get the company to reveal the cap, but to defer the question until you've demonstrated high value to them, see where they start, and try to find their cap from there.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#276

Post by bbcbasic »

erikb wrote: post #243
fsloth wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose it's a good rule of thumb while figuring out the dynamics and the influence game of the negotiations. The best thing I did for my negotiation skill was to read up popular psychology books on influence. It may not make me a negotiations pro but just being able to name some of the dynamics and recognize some of the tactics puts me (or so I feel) at a far better position at the discussions. E.g. it's easier to…

I would agree with your first statement "good for learning" if learning would be about maximing each result of a learning experience. But actually learning is more efficient if you do mistakes that you can evaluate and make decisions based on them. And if you don't say a number you don't make a mistake. Therefore I would say that not saying anything may increase your knowledge of your value but it doesn't increase yo…

That makes no sense to me. What does being underpaid teach you?

Re: Salary Negotiation

#277

Post by 15155 »

tedmiston wrote: post #268
15155 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Don't name a number first" is advice that really only pays dividends to those who don't know their worth. Those who do know their relative worth are already playing a different game than the former, and will probably be able to reap more advancement and value than someone "getting lucky" by having a company mess up and issue a highball offer. When entering a negotiation, you should know your worth and be able to art…

Your worth does not necessarily equal what value a company places on a given role they are trying to place you for.

Correct! But this is exactly the definition of "fit."

When I was speaking about "worth" before, naturally one must scope their estimation to the market they're trying to sell to. Market worth is only what the market is willing to pay for something.

If you've got a broad, valuable skillset, but a company can only use 10% of it, they can rightfully scope the role and issue an offer or decline to issue an offer.

What isn't okay, though, is taking the scoped offer and then performing in a far wider capacity - that is the very essence of being undervalued and/or underpaid.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#278

Post by tedmiston »

nissimk wrote: post #269
Infernal wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first half of your post reduces to "know how much the prospective employer is willing to pay". Anchoring high only works if you know what "high" is. If the recruiter had a 150k-200k range in mind, and you throw out 150k, then you've just cheated yourself. There's lots of advice in this thread to "know what you're worth", but where is that signal coming from?

Here is a simple heuristic that's worked well for me: look at all of the job ads online for similar roles in the same city. Most will not name numbers. Find the highest listed number (top of range) in all of those ads and add 20%. That is a place where you will not be selling yourself short. You may not be maximizing your comp, but you will be above the average. Just understand this may disqualify you from jobs where…

You might be able to compare salaries like that, but cross comparing equity is much more difficult.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#279

Post by eweise »

huac wrote: post #270
eweise wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it depends on what type of person the company is looking for. If they are looking for a leader then they will respect you more if you bargain hard and maximize your worth. If they're looking for an agreeable doormat, then they will like you more for compromising on your worth. I've found that management likes rank and file engineers to be doormats, easily compromising and agreeable. Imagine if they have to wo…

Do you want to be treated like a doormat? If not, try again somewhere else.

Exactly my point. Don't set the precedent at the bargaining table.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#280

Post by tedmiston »

15155 wrote: post #277
tedmiston wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your worth does not necessarily equal what value a company places on a given role they are trying to place you for.

Correct! But this is exactly the definition of "fit." When I was speaking about "worth" before, naturally one must scope their estimation to the market they're trying to sell to. Market worth is only what the market is willing to pay for something. If you've got a broad, valuable skillset, but a company can only use 10% of it, they can rightfully scope the role and issue an offer or decline to issue an offer. What is…

Is it?

I've always looked at fit more from company culture, team dynamic, overall team skill level (A players, B players, etc.) vs. something that's directly associated with a certain compensation package.

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