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Salary Negotiation

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Re: Salary Negotiation

#261

Post by swombat »

cmdrfred wrote: post #69
swombat wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally, perhaps - not in our case. We pay what we (meaning, the staff, who decide their own pay) believe to be a good wage, and we have excellent work-life balance - we have a number of new parents who have commented that GrantTree has been a very supportive culture for them in the first 6-12 months (which are pretty hard apparently). And we have remote work, flexible working hours, etc.

> we have a number of new parents who have commented that GrantTree has been a very supportive culture for them in the first 6-12 months "I was 20 minutes late because I had to take my newborn to the hospital and they only gave me a written warning!" >And we have remote work "On the fifth wednesday of every month I can work from home!" >flexible working hours "I worked from 9am to 10pm yesterday so I get to come in a…

> "I was 20 minutes late because I had to take my newborn to the hospital and they only gave me a written warning!"

Or: since my child was born I've been able to be home by 5pm every day without any problems.

> "On the fifth wednesday of every month I can work from home!"

Or: one of our people is currently taking part in Remote Year. He's just spent the last few months in South America. http://remoteyear.com

> "I worked from 9am to 10pm yesterday so I get to come in at 10am to 10pm today!"

Or: we don't track working hours at all, and people often choose to work from home or do whatever makes sense given their circumstances. They work because they want to get their work done, not because someone's hovering over them with a finger ready to point at them.

> GrantTree might be one of the few outliers here and if so I congratulate you, but this is typically what employers mean when they say those sort of things.

Yes, it is quite sad that every good thought gets copied and corrupted. I can't do much about that.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#262

Post by basseq »

daxfohl wrote: post #140

Has anyone tried to beat the interviewer to the punch on the salary question? Put them on the spot by asking their range before they hit you with it?

Yes, but it's typically a factor of a bad HR department.

Don't let the recruiter hang up on that first phone screen without satisfying yourself that they could make a competitive offer. Otherwise, you're just wasting time. They should have the same desire, hence this is only an issue with bad HR departments.

It's not worth it to jump to salary immediately. You come off as either selfish or naive.

So yes, I've done it. You get to the end of that call, and you realize you haven't talked compensation. So you tie in with interest and next steps: "Sounds like I could be a great fit for this position, and I look forward to talking further with the team to confirm that. I do want to make sure we're on the same page in terms of compensation..." Then you go from there.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#263

Post by dang »

oafitupa wrote: post #36

Are we still linking to this snake oil salesman?

We asked you before not to do this. Since you didn't stop, we've banned your account. If you don't want it to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#264

Post by BuckRogers »

Tactic wrote: post #205
whack wrote: post #139

I've heard this "don't name a number first" advice so many times, but personally, it never seems to work. My current comp is significantly higher compared to others with my level of experience. So when I refuse to give a number, the recruiter ends up guessing a number that is significantly lower, and making a lowball offer. I've also had many other experiences where after many hours of interviews, I find out that the…

In my mind not naming your number first is advise given only if you are trying to maximize the negotiation. And even then it is quite debatable. I view it instead that I am offering a service. I am well aware of what my service is worth, what my financial needs are and what amount would make me feel satisfied with what I am being paid. So I tell them that number. I also tell them that the number is only negotiable in…

Everyone is talking about this but no one is saying it: how much are your services worth in general? Would you share? Anyone is welcome to answer, not just Tactic.

I'm just curious.

I'll go first. I know developers that make 70 a year and some that make 120. It does depend where you live of course, but for me personally I need 90K minimum or I won't consider any gig, anywhere. If I can't get that, I go into subsistence living, doing odd jobs or finding a gig at McDonalds. But I won't lower my standards for dev services.

While 90 is a minimum, 95-110 is what I want. Depending on the role. If I were more senior, I'd want 120+.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#265

Post by sillysaurus3 »

mehrdada wrote: post #231
jkempe11 wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a recruiter and I will tell you this: you should abandon this advice, for certain. It's funny - probably the best advice anyone ever gives on negotiation is exactly the opposite of "don't name a number first." It's "anchor high." You should be anchoring to a number that is high but realistic, and negotiating from a position of strength. This is especially true for senior- and late-career individuals who have som…

> You should be anchoring to a number that is high but realistic, and negotiating from a position of strength. I very much agree with you and my other comments in this thread are very much advocating for this position. I'd just like to add an important caveat by saying anecdotally in multiple occasions I've seen friends (notably people who are just moving in to the Valley from elsewhere and/or right out of college) t…

Want to name some numbers? Ideally with context.

I'd like to know how high is high in SV. Especially for junior positions.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#266

Post by basseq »

Infernal wrote: post #250
basseq wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also the concept of a negotiation anchor. In that it's better to name the first number and make it borderline ridiculous and in your favor. So that anything lower seems like a deal. Hypothetical situation time. I'm a job seeker and my minimum acceptable salary is $100k. You're a recruiter and your range is $80-$120k. Neither of us know the others' number. If I make you say a number first, you would start at t…

The first half of your post reduces to "know how much the prospective employer is willing to pay". Anchoring high only works if you know what "high" is. If the recruiter had a 150k-200k range in mind, and you throw out 150k, then you've just cheated yourself. There's lots of advice in this thread to "know what you're worth", but where is that signal coming from?

Market research, competitive offers, friends... there are a lot of sources. If you don't have at least a sense, it doesn't matter what negotiation tactic you're using. Maxing out at $200k would just be a factor of luck or a mistake on the part of the company.

Anchoring is merely a technique: the first half of my post boils down to "it's ok to throw out the first number".

Re: Salary Negotiation

#267

Post by swombat »

cookiecaper wrote: post #209
swombat wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is worth any intrinsic amount. The amount is relative to the work they do, the industry they're in, the state of the economy, how many other people can do that job, how many have actually applied, etc. Any salary formula is entirely arbitrary. We have a pay scale simply because it is a useful tool for conversation, not because it represents any sort of intrinsic property of the person being placed on the pay s…

What percentage of the revenue derived from an employee's labor would he receive, in an ideal world? The correct answer to this is probably something between 30 and 70 percent, depending on a variety of factors. The real-world answer to this is "however little we can possibly share, because we want to hoard it all for ourselves", and personally I find that to be a distasteful reality (I find most investors' justifica…

I'm not fabulously wealthy, nor do I expect to get so from GrantTree. Yes, I am fairly well off at this point, able to buy (jointly with my wife) a small 2-bed flat in an ex-council flat in London - that's after spending 5.5 years starting a business that has raised over £35m of government funding for 600 UK startups and employs 27 people. If you think that's fabulous wealth, you have a different definition of it than I have. Yes, the business is technically worth a pile of cash (we're about to do a valuation for the purpose of issuing shares to employees so I don't know yet exactly how much), but we're not planning to sell the business so that can only be realised through long-term survival and success of the company.

The team has themselves set a target for wages to 40% of revenues, in line with your suggestion. I would have set it higher (and in fact right now our wage bill is closer to 60%) but that was not my decision to make. The 40-60% is of course not evenly distributed, though I would also quite like the thought of that, but the team themselves decide how to allocate it, so I guess they're doing the best they can.

I find the reality you perceive distasteful too - and I agree that it is widespread and it is sad that that is so.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#268

Post by tedmiston »

15155 wrote: post #226
jkempe11 wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a recruiter and I will tell you this: you should abandon this advice, for certain. It's funny - probably the best advice anyone ever gives on negotiation is exactly the opposite of "don't name a number first." It's "anchor high." You should be anchoring to a number that is high but realistic, and negotiating from a position of strength. This is especially true for senior- and late-career individuals who have som…

"Don't name a number first" is advice that really only pays dividends to those who don't know their worth. Those who do know their relative worth are already playing a different game than the former, and will probably be able to reap more advancement and value than someone "getting lucky" by having a company mess up and issue a highball offer. When entering a negotiation, you should know your worth and be able to art…

Your worth does not necessarily equal what value a company places on a given role they are trying to place you for.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#269

Post by nissimk »

Infernal wrote: post #250
basseq wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also the concept of a negotiation anchor. In that it's better to name the first number and make it borderline ridiculous and in your favor. So that anything lower seems like a deal. Hypothetical situation time. I'm a job seeker and my minimum acceptable salary is $100k. You're a recruiter and your range is $80-$120k. Neither of us know the others' number. If I make you say a number first, you would start at t…

The first half of your post reduces to "know how much the prospective employer is willing to pay". Anchoring high only works if you know what "high" is. If the recruiter had a 150k-200k range in mind, and you throw out 150k, then you've just cheated yourself. There's lots of advice in this thread to "know what you're worth", but where is that signal coming from?

Here is a simple heuristic that's worked well for me: look at all of the job ads online for similar roles in the same city. Most will not name numbers. Find the highest listed number (top of range) in all of those ads and add 20%. That is a place where you will not be selling yourself short. You may not be maximizing your comp, but you will be above the average. Just understand this may disqualify you from jobs where they only pay below average. You need to be comfortable with being disqualified for high comp.

In addition to highest published umber + 20%, I would advise to carefully read any stated salaries on message boards like this when they come along and pay attention to the highest numbers. Then you will be aware of what is possible.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#270

Post by huac »

eweise wrote: post #258
Tactic wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my mind not naming your number first is advise given only if you are trying to maximize the negotiation. And even then it is quite debatable. I view it instead that I am offering a service. I am well aware of what my service is worth, what my financial needs are and what amount would make me feel satisfied with what I am being paid. So I tell them that number. I also tell them that the number is only negotiable in…

I think it depends on what type of person the company is looking for. If they are looking for a leader then they will respect you more if you bargain hard and maximize your worth. If they're looking for an agreeable doormat, then they will like you more for compromising on your worth. I've found that management likes rank and file engineers to be doormats, easily compromising and agreeable. Imagine if they have to wo…

Do you want to be treated like a doormat? If not, try again somewhere else.
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