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Salary Negotiation

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Re: Salary Negotiation

#181

Post by designtofly »

whack wrote: post #139

I've heard this "don't name a number first" advice so many times, but personally, it never seems to work. My current comp is significantly higher compared to others with my level of experience. So when I refuse to give a number, the recruiter ends up guessing a number that is significantly lower, and making a lowball offer. I've also had many other experiences where after many hours of interviews, I find out that the…

I agree with you. I see this advice constantly parroted about, but I just cringe at the amount of work these people go through to avoid naming a number. If you want to deflect the first time the question is asked, fine. But if you have to deflect more than once, you won't come off like a professional. A professional knows their value. If you follow all of the rest of the advice, like doing your research, you'll know what you are worth and it shouldn't be a problem naming a fair price.

The other point I have is that the first number isn't all that important. Yes, it might anchor the starting point, but you'll be in a stronger negotiating position when the written offer is actually made.

I just went through this recently. Yes, their hiring manager asked me what my requirement was for a salary and I gave them a number without any fuss. In their first formal offer, they gave me the number I wanted; however, by that point in the hiring process, it was clear that I was a top candidate, and with other competing offers, I was able to get them to come up another 30%.

In the end, I don't think the best approach is to force the company to make the first offer. They aren't going to give their best offer if you force them to make the first move. The only time that strategy might make sense is if your best number is much lower than their worst number; in that case, you did a lousy job in the research phase and need to take a step back.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#182

Post by wtracy »

linkregister wrote: post #163
dpweb wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recently bought a car and went by myself cause a friend and wife didn't even want to talk to the sales guy - such a fear of negotiation. I want to be prepared going in, so the plan was: They have a price, I counter. They counter in the middle. I either take that price or walk, that's it. No further negotiation. Reduced the stress by just sticking to that.

Just make sure you aren't waiting for them to relinquish the keys to your car they took to evaluate its value as a trade-in. I once had to threaten to call the police in order to get the keys back so I could leave!

Actually, never trade in your existing car at the dealer where you make your new purchase (unless you are a skilled negotiator). Typically, whatever discounts you ask for on the new car, they will quietly subtract from their "evaluation" of your old car's value.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#183

Post by ddebernardy »

ohjeez wrote: post #30
JoshDoody wrote: post #3

Hi everyone! That's me you hear talking to Patrick ;) If you have any questions about the episode or salary negotiation in general, ask away! As you can probably tell, I love talking about this stuff!

Most discussions about salary negotiation are about postponing the money discussion until we know there's a fit. But what do you do when you-as-applicant need to be sure you're not wasting your time (or theirs)? That is: I'm really senior in my field, with 25 years of experience, and for several years I've been commanding top dollar. (I'm worth it, too!) But often I start discussions with would-be employers (or clien…

> How do I signal to a client, "I'm expensive -- and worth it!" without saying, "Hey, can you afford me? Because otherwise let's not even talk."

You're missing a step in your sales process, which is the qualification part. Before letting a conversation go into much details or letting it turn into an interview call, take control and state that you'd like to to spend 10-15 minutes asking questions to make sure they're a good fit so you can make best use of each others' time. Then ask:

- "So tell me, why are we talking here today? What is it exactly that brought us into this conversation?" [Let them throw up their problems on the table, but only in broad strokes.] (~5-10min)

- What their decision process is and how they'll fit in [in passing] (~1-2min)

- How urgent it is for them to fix the problem [if it's not clearly urgent] (~1-2min)

- What their ballpark budget is [~2-3min]

Most prospects resist giving a figure at this stage. A trick to get them to give a ballpark is to announce a scary-sounding range. As in "hold, the type of contracts I work on start at $5k and go as high as $500k. I don't necessarily need your specific number, but can you at least let me know where you more or less fit in that range so I can know how much I can help you?"

Sometimes, there's an obvious and intuitive mismatch between what their problem is and the budget they're willing to allocate towards fixing it. If you suspect they've deeper pockets than what they said, you can occasionally hold their hands and walk them through their own numbers. e.g. "Hold, let me try to see if I get it right. You just told me your team of 6 engineers was on this for 4 months and failed to make this work. Depending on how you pay them that likely makes it a $150-250k type of problem. Are you sure your $20-30k budget range will allow you to solve it?" [Then see how high they could actually go, without negotiating or promising anything on your end.]

That way you won't waste time going over prospect problems for hours on end without the slightest clue of whether it'll be worth your time or not. If they're clearly under your number, say it up front upon [dis-]qualifying them. Either politely stop the conversation there, or spend the rest of your meeting giving them a few good pointers. [Then ask for a few referrals.]

Re: Salary Negotiation

#184

Post by Mendenhall »

vertex-four wrote: post #149
Mendenhall wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the person applying will be in a position of weakness. That to me is letting "worry" even if real drag you down. I think when you really need something it is even more important to negotiate from a position of strength, if not they will sense it and pick it apart. In some ways its much like dating, does anyone really want the desperate type ?

"Always be able to walk away" is not very good advice to people who don't have the option to walk away, whether people should always have that option or not in a perfect world. "Pretend you're able to walk away" possibly is, but not everyone's good at playing games like that. The alternative to not working is, eventually, losing almost everything you have. The alternative to not having a romantic partner is, well, no…

"always be able to walk away" to me includes never allowing yourself to be in a position where you cant walk away. I think of that as an actual survival trait not just a business skill.

I would also say never pretend, actually be willing to walk away. Someone good at psychology or picking up subtle clues will see right through pretending.

Anyway you slice it being desperate is never good, don't be desperate.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#185

Post by lasfter »

vibrato wrote: post #164
lasfter wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always hear assertions about negative reactions to assertive women. Has any science been done on it?

Yes, it appears that women are penalized for assertiveness (more than men). http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/men-see-powerful-women-a... https://hbr.org/2013/04/for-women-leaders-likability-a/

Thanks!

Re: Salary Negotiation

#186

Post by JoblessWonder »

Mendenhall wrote: post #184
vertex-four wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Always be able to walk away" is not very good advice to people who don't have the option to walk away, whether people should always have that option or not in a perfect world. "Pretend you're able to walk away" possibly is, but not everyone's good at playing games like that. The alternative to not working is, eventually, losing almost everything you have. The alternative to not having a romantic partner is, well, no…

"always be able to walk away" to me includes never allowing yourself to be in a position where you cant walk away. I think of that as an actual survival trait not just a business skill. I would also say never pretend, actually be willing to walk away. Someone good at psychology or picking up subtle clues will see right through pretending. Anyway you slice it being desperate is never good, don't be desperate.

I'll be honest, you sound like someone who has never had to be desperate. There are times in someone's life when it isn't a choice.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#187

Post by Mendenhall »

JoblessWonder wrote: post #176
Mendenhall wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the person applying will be in a position of weakness. That to me is letting "worry" even if real drag you down. I think when you really need something it is even more important to negotiate from a position of strength, if not they will sense it and pick it apart. In some ways its much like dating, does anyone really want the desperate type ?

That is exactly what I'm saying. They are in a position of weakness. Their BATNA is losing everything they have. You don't need to be desperate, but you can't be as cut-throat.

You have valid points that I think are very much worth considering and should be. I appreciate good convo in threads like this so didn't want to come across as trying to be petty or battling your perspective. Also yes I understood your point :)

Re: Salary Negotiation

#188

Post by cortesoft »

mehrdada wrote: post #171
cortesoft wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would have to waste a lot of time for it not to be worth it. Lets say through your entire interview process at multiple companies, it adds an extra 10 hours. If that gets you $10k a year (or more) over 5 years, I am pretty sure that is worth it.

You need to multiply that with the probability of the companies not beating your current salary. The higher your current salary, this probability will go higher, and your interview cost will too. In effect, interviewing not being worth your time is proportional to your salary squared--not a linear relation.

Yeah, but once you get established enough (which you probably are if your salary is really high), then 95% of interviewing is you looking at the work they are doing and deciding if you want to do it, and salary negotiation. When you are good, the filtering on your part should come way before interviewing.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#189

Post by 15155 »

cozuya wrote: post #180
15155 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> many times recruiters will contact me Recruiters are easy: "What is the client's targeted range for this position?" or "What have you placed other people for at this company?" If the top-end of the range is within some arbitrary percentage of your target, pursue, otherwise: "no thanks!"

You can turn it around on them a little bit by replying "this sounds like it may be a good fit for me, but I'll need a salary range from you in order to move forward" and then the whole conversation is short circuited.

Third-party recruiters and staffing agencies won't have this conversation or play this game at all: they'll be 100% upfront with you upon demand.

"In-house recruiters" would require that kind of short-circuiting, and it will be met with varying results.

Asking: "what is the top end of your current employees' salary range for X role/experience?" can be good, too, to preempt the conversation.

It's not asking them to make an offer or anchor a price for you specifically, but will save everyone time when you discover that the top-end is 40% lower than you would even interview for.

If the prospective team is large and diverse enough, there will exist people that are more experienced and more-compensated than you. At that point you will at least know that they're paying it to someone.

If they're not paying anyone what you expect: you do not want to be the most well-compensated or smartest person in a role at a company and should pass on general principles.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#190

Post by apocalyptic0n3 »

cortesoft wrote: post #147
whack wrote: post #139

I've heard this "don't name a number first" advice so many times, but personally, it never seems to work. My current comp is significantly higher compared to others with my level of experience. So when I refuse to give a number, the recruiter ends up guessing a number that is significantly lower, and making a lowball offer. I've also had many other experiences where after many hours of interviews, I find out that the…

If the offer comes in way too low, you can choose at that point to give your current salary. If you gave the current salary in beginning, you can't take back that bit of information.

The last interview process I went through was three weeks and four separate meetings (1 long email, 1 online test, 1 phone interview, and 1 in-person interview). All in all, it was about 9 hours of dealing with them, plus a 2 hour round trip to their office and having to take a half day at my current job. They never asked about salary expectations and I never gave any (a mistake on my part, I believe) and when they finally made an offer, it came in a full 25% under my current salary (which is what I had been looking for). Asking around, a few other devs received similar offers that they turned down from that company.

I feel that I could have saved myself the majority of those 9 hours if I had told them my salary expectations from the beginning. They would have either balked immediately or told me the position wasn't going to be paid that and we would have been done. I think that is how I will handle things going forward, personally.

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