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Salary Negotiation

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Re: Salary Negotiation

#141

Post by toyg »

xviia wrote: post #84
mathattack wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think "teaching women to negotiate" is practical. Is Google or Facebook supposed to send candidates to negotiation classes before offer negotiation time? Is there evidence that a training class can overcome whatever combination of nature and nurture causes the discrepancy? Let the market drive the compensation level. If "the compensation for the position - take it or leave it" is too low, then the company won…

Of course Google and Facebook are not going to send candidates to negotiation classes; they would stand to lose from such an arrangement. Rather, there are many ways to approach this: 1. Salary negotiation could be included within curriculum at CS schools. (Schools would love if alumni made more money!) 2. Techniques could be included in books (like "Soft Skills"), podcasts, etc. 3. The culture in Silicon Valley coul…

> 1. Salary negotiation could be included within curriculum at CS schools.

This is such a good idea. The modern school system oscillates between industrial training and academic pursuit, and very practical skills like this one (or householding finances) which could directly benefit the actual person, are terribly neglected.

What is it that stops teachers from talking about everyday matters related to money? Is it their own sense of inadequacy on the subject? Fear of letting out how much they (don't) make? Is it "political pressure"? Or simply that they love their academic subjects so much, they'd rather not talk about more prosaic stuff?

Re: Salary Negotiation

#143

Post by SapphireSun »

whack wrote: post #139

I've heard this "don't name a number first" advice so many times, but personally, it never seems to work. My current comp is significantly higher compared to others with my level of experience. So when I refuse to give a number, the recruiter ends up guessing a number that is significantly lower, and making a lowball offer. I've also had many other experiences where after many hours of interviews, I find out that the…

The point of the advice seems to be that you might get lucky and they'll name a higher price, so if you happen to know that they won't you have more information than they do and can set the anchor point appropriately I suppose. I'm not going to claim I'm some kind of master negotiator though.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#144

Post by daxfohl »

whack wrote: post #139

I've heard this "don't name a number first" advice so many times, but personally, it never seems to work. My current comp is significantly higher compared to others with my level of experience. So when I refuse to give a number, the recruiter ends up guessing a number that is significantly lower, and making a lowball offer. I've also had many other experiences where after many hours of interviews, I find out that the…

Perhaps try turning it on its head. Ask the interviewer what their salary range is, before they ask you.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#145

Post by dionidium »

gricardo99 wrote: post #130
dionidium wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the assumption is that employers tend to quote a higher initial number than prospective employees, then the anchoring effect supports the claim that the first person to quote a number loses.

What's that assumption based on? I would assume the opposite, that the employer negotiates in their self-interests, and tend to quote lower numbers.

Right, but even then, you're in a position to counter their initial offer and move up from there. If you name the number first, then it only has one direction to move (and it's not the good direction).

Re: Salary Negotiation

#146

Post by lasfter »

kaybe wrote: post #88
mathattack wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think "teaching women to negotiate" is practical. Is Google or Facebook supposed to send candidates to negotiation classes before offer negotiation time? Is there evidence that a training class can overcome whatever combination of nature and nurture causes the discrepancy? Let the market drive the compensation level. If "the compensation for the position - take it or leave it" is too low, then the company won…

> Is there evidence that a training class can overcome whatever combination of nature and nurture causes the discrepancy? There is also the issue that the same behaviour is seen differently when coming from men and women. What is assertive in a man can be aggressive and offputting in a woman. Which means you'd have to have different kinds of courses for different genders, and it only starts there (more minority group…

I always hear assertions about negative reactions to assertive women. Has any science been done on it?

Re: Salary Negotiation

#147

Post by cortesoft »

whack wrote: post #139

I've heard this "don't name a number first" advice so many times, but personally, it never seems to work. My current comp is significantly higher compared to others with my level of experience. So when I refuse to give a number, the recruiter ends up guessing a number that is significantly lower, and making a lowball offer. I've also had many other experiences where after many hours of interviews, I find out that the…

If the offer comes in way too low, you can choose at that point to give your current salary. If you gave the current salary in beginning, you can't take back that bit of information.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#148

Post by pyoung »

xviia wrote: post #107
pyoung wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Negotiations still take place, they just happen in a different format. For example if the Technical Lead is having trouble hiring due to low salaries for the positions, he would make the case to management that they need to raise the salary range for those positions. And the added benefit to this format (in a transparent organization) current employees would also get a raise which would probably help with attrition.…

In these cases, though, we're relying on the employer to institute those salaries. However, the employer usually does not have an incentive to pay more if they can get the same thing for cheaper.

The employer isn't magically immune to market forces simply because they move to a transparent salary system. If they are significantly under-paying their employees, and they are not making up the difference via other benefits (shorter working hours, bonuses, etc...) then they are going to run into a lot of trouble hiring and holding onto employees.

And just because a company has defined salary ranges doesn't mean employees have no voice in the matter. If they feel those salaries are not keeping up with market rates, they can make that known to management, or they can go find greener pastures.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#149

Post by vertex-four »

Mendenhall wrote: post #135
JoblessWonder wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find its the person who is applying that has the power not the company I think you are assuming the person applying has some sort of safety net (a current job, savings, alternate income.) That is where the BATNA comes into play. Sure, if you are already making an acceptable amount of money to meet your needs, aren't overworked/over-stressed, and relatively satisfied then you are indeed in a position of power. If…

Then the person applying will be in a position of weakness. That to me is letting "worry" even if real drag you down. I think when you really need something it is even more important to negotiate from a position of strength, if not they will sense it and pick it apart. In some ways its much like dating, does anyone really want the desperate type ?

"Always be able to walk away" is not very good advice to people who don't have the option to walk away, whether people should always have that option or not in a perfect world. "Pretend you're able to walk away" possibly is, but not everyone's good at playing games like that.

The alternative to not working is, eventually, losing almost everything you have. The alternative to not having a romantic partner is, well, not having a romantic partner. You're not going to die from lack of love.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#150

Post by potatolicious »

whack wrote: post #139

I've heard this "don't name a number first" advice so many times, but personally, it never seems to work. My current comp is significantly higher compared to others with my level of experience. So when I refuse to give a number, the recruiter ends up guessing a number that is significantly lower, and making a lowball offer. I've also had many other experiences where after many hours of interviews, I find out that the…

I'm in a similar boat - and definitely not naming a number first has caused friction when the initial offer ends up coming in way below my existing comp.

But I'm sticking with the strategy.

Ultimately the jobs where, in a vacuum and asked to value the job themselves, they come up with a number a sad fraction of your current comp, there was simply no scenario in which you would have been happy with comp at that place. It is simply the wrong job/company, and a change in negotiating tactic would not have fixed it.

The lowball initial offer ruffles some feathers and produces bad feelings, but ultimately does not change the outcome of the game.

Where withholding your current comp matters is where you're looking to make a step up - either a position with more seniority/responsibility, or simply at a company that pays people more. In these cases you have some knowledge that the upper end of the envelope is higher than your current comp, and so you don't want to anchor the negotiation low right off the bat.

Knowledge of how much companies pay for what positions is invaluable in negotiation - personally I wouldn't even bother interviewing at places where I know for certain the comp won't hit my expectations.

Side note: Glassdoor is incredibly bad for this kind of intelligence. Their medians lean low and the upper end of the envelope is in my experience almost entirely unrepresented. If you go in assuming the comp envelope is what Glassdoor says it is, you will lowball yourself severely.

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