Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons • Hacker News Board

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#351

Post by internaut » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 6:49 AM UTC

Redoubts wrote: post #106

Xylakant wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody pretended so - which is the whole point. Thiel could have given his money to a foundation that openly sponsors lawsuits for media victioms. That would haven been for the public good. Instead he chose to sponsor the lawsuit (and other lawsuits) against gawker in secret because he feels wronged by them with the intent of punishing them. And that's not in the public interest because it can be considered a form of…

> Thiel could have given his money to a foundation that openly sponsors lawsuits for media victioms. Why is that better than shuttering a perpetrator and dancing on its grave?

It's not substantively any different, but the other old people are disconcerted by the dancing. Perhaps if there was a formal dancing school scheduled at the graveyard they could get used to the idea.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#352

Post by internaut » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 7:16 AM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #238

grellas wrote: post #219

Extremely wealthy people are just like any other group of people in that they come in all shapes and sizes. Here, one very wealthy individual used his money to fund someone else's lawsuit. He did so secretly. He did so against an organization that had harmed him and against which he presumably wanted payback but that also had done a gratuitously damaging and sleazy act as part of a pattern of sleazy acts upon which i…

The problem with this line of reasoning is that it's hopelessly naive. It takes time for people who have been suddenly vaulted into the position of being the ruling class to realize that they are regarded as such. Silicon Valley as a culture still sees itself as a scrappy underdog. They see startups as small underfunded rebels trying to disrupt rich and powerful corporate interests. They see themselves as unstylish a…

> The meta-discussion around Peter Thiel and Gawker is fundamentally about power and who wields it in society.

We agree on that much, but the Media are returning fire against Silicon Valley writ large, not just Peter Thiel.

They view us as competition. It's not about rich vs poor at all, it's a power vs a power. The media wants to drag the government into regulating Silicon Valley as a special case.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11824117

I think the future is weirder than they think.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#353

Post by adamlett » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 8:22 AM UTC

st3v3r wrote: post #246

adamlett wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really can't imagine? What if for example the losing party in a law suit was automatically forced to pay the legal expenses of the winning party? That is actually how it works many places outside of the US. It's quite effective at discouraging frivolous lawsuits, and it means that a rich person can't bankrupt a someone by waging a legal attrition war.

All that would do is cause a lot of poor people to not bring lawsuits that are just, out of fear that another company with more money and lawyers will be able to out lawyer them.

That kind of thinking is caused by living in a system where so many questionable lawsuits are brought before a court that you get used to the idea that what ultimately matters is the quality of each party's legal team. What you are forgetting is that there are many cases where the facts and the law unambiguously favours one of the parties. And in those cases, no amount lawyering up will matter, because judges are not as a rule incompetent. In a system where fewer questionable lawsuits are brought to begin with, the clear cut cases will become more visible, verdicts will be less controversial, and people's faith in the system will rise. To the extent that some cases are not brought, because the facts don't support them well enough, that's a good thing. To the extent that some cases are not brought, because the law is unclear, making a lawsuit risky, that's a problem for law makers to solve.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#354

Post by DrScump » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 8:32 AM UTC

mukmuk wrote: post #45

plehoux wrote: post #14

This is totally BS. Litigation finance has been around for years, and has been done by all kind of people and organizations for all kind of purposes. Thiel is rich, he does things, there is no causality with 'tech' here. > Maybe it’s time for Silicon Valley to tone things down. To admit that, no, the Valley can’t solve all human problems -- not even close -- and never will. W T F.

Can you point me to some examples where an individual financed litigation against a media outlet or journalist? I don't doubt they exist, but I can't think of any specifically.

Not sure about the "financed" distinction, but the Alioto case pretty much put Look Magazine out of business:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Alioto#Political_career

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#355

Post by threatofrain » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 10:46 AM UTC

bakhy wrote: post #119

threatofrain wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the problem is the fact that Peter Thiel tossed money in the direction of a lawsuit. The issue is that money matters in justice, and that Peter Thiel coincidentally put his money somewhere did not make this so. People are focusing shame on Peter Thiel today but that's the wrong place. There will always be rich people.

> There will always be rich people. Peter Thiel is not an automaton. he is a human being. he bears responsibility for his actions. he might not be doing anything illegal, but it is perfectly justified to expect more of people than merely following the letter of the law, and as for the rest, anything goes! it is particularly justified to expect more from such influential people like him. he bears, if not legal, then m…

I don't like moral expectations, because I feel that it competes with precious narrative-time in public discourse with something far more interesting -- hard mechanisms. I believe in a policy / mechanistic fix of the importance of money in the judicial system, rather than spending time shaming one Peter Thiel.

I don't like moral expectations because it works like a black box, which I would be okay with if only the results weren't so lacking and unreliable. When discourse is constrained by limited resources, I prefer to speak of mechanisms because I feel it has a more plausible relationship with moral results.

When I'm one on one with you, then of course, we might discuss our moral framework and expectations, standards which may go far higher than brute mechanisms.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#356

Post by bakhy » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 12:13 PM UTC

threatofrain wrote: post #355

bakhy wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There will always be rich people. Peter Thiel is not an automaton. he is a human being. he bears responsibility for his actions. he might not be doing anything illegal, but it is perfectly justified to expect more of people than merely following the letter of the law, and as for the rest, anything goes! it is particularly justified to expect more from such influential people like him. he bears, if not legal, then m…

I don't like moral expectations, because I feel that it competes with precious narrative-time in public discourse with something far more interesting -- hard mechanisms . I believe in a policy / mechanistic fix of the importance of money in the judicial system, rather than spending time shaming one Peter Thiel. I don't like moral expectations because it works like a black box, which I would be okay with if only the r…

i can understand where you're coming from. i've felt exactly the same about Martin Shkreli. people just went crazy about him, and few asked how to change the system to not allow it. but still, even if the system is wrong, so is Shkreli.

no system can be perfect. even in pure math you have Gödel. in the ugly gray world of real life, of human societies, it can only be worse. unpredictable outcomes, grey areas,.. they are unavoidable. so i think we must do both - create systems which try to guarantee good order, and always complement them with a human touch. and that means personal moral responsibility, and a duty to think of more than just satisfying the dead letter of the law. furthermore, a system which would exactly codify morality is probably impossible, or even deadly for society. (just imagine what it means to have laws covering everything that is immoral... it would be the most extremely totalitarian state imaginable.) a lot will always be left to people themselves, to decide and to enforce in this way, through open public discussions, and their ugly brother, public blaming and shaming. it not even clear: should we even make a law against what Mr Thiel is doing? the answer does not seem so easy to me.

also, how could this discussion even take place if no one should judge the actions of Mr Thiel? what kind of abstract articles would we then be reading? "somebody somewhere did something, we can't say too much about what, so you don't figure out who it is"? :)

BTW, is it not kinda funny to defend a well known libertarian by proposing a stricter system? :)

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#357

Post by sangnoir » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 1:00 PM UTC

internaut wrote: post #221

sangnoir wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Note that the only entities complaining about this are themselves journalists. They're just closing ranks It would have been hilarious if someone had similarly casually dismissed the uproar software engineers were making over Oracle v Google: Note that the only entities complaining about API copyrights are themselves developers. They're just closing ranks

Would that not be true? We do have our opinions and they do stem how we do work. Therefore we have interests, received opinions and such.

It wouldn't be true for me (as a software engineer). I would like to believe as a person more familiar with how the sausage is made, so to speak, I am more sensitive to potential threats to the industry than the layperson. Terming my concerns as "closing ranks" is a disservice because you are dismissing them without consideration or critical thinking - it's ad-hominem-lite

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#358

Post by ada1981 » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 1:38 PM UTC

Teeboo wrote: post #307

ada1981 wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> What happens to society when laws can only be enforced by the wealthy? Years ago I was assaulted by former pro football player Ron Dayne in a bar in Madison, WI. He was pissed at the bouncer for making him wait in line like everyone else and took his anger out on me who happened to be in the front of the line by jabbing my eye three times, tearing my eyeball and covering me in blood. There were about a dozen witne…

That's actually a really depressing story. Genuinely made me sad to be honest.

I appreciate your empathy -- it was an intense experience and one I was ashamed to even share for years.

I think what was most sad for me was the loss of the illusion that the justice system had anything to do with justice.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#359

Post by GCA10 » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 1:49 PM UTC

internaut wrote: post #350

GCA10 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not forget that Gawker monied up ahead of the trial, too. In a January 2016 staff memo, Gawker CEO Nick Denton described an investment by Columbus Nova (controlled by Russian oligarch Viktor Vekselburg) as a way to make sure his company had the resources for a full-stakes court battle. The judge in the case had recommended mediation, but both sides really wanted a big trial. So they got one.

Interesting. Can you provide sources and also what do you think the end game is? Did Nick Denton know he was going to lose and go ahead anyway? Or was he just unable to conceive of losing?

Glad to oblige on sources. Here's a copy of Nick Denton's memo announcing the investment and its relevance to the Hogan litigation: http://jimromenesko.com/2016/01/20/gawker-takes-outside-mone...

And here's a Fortune story with a little more background on the investors: http://fortune.com/2016/01/20/gawker-funding/

On the "endgame" question, it's worth noting that Gawker's new backer is one of the world's 100 richest people, with an estimated $9.8 billion net worth, according to Forbes. Thiel checks in at just $2 billion or so.

If both billionaires want to keep battling, this case could rattle around in a lot of different courts for a long time. We may not know yet who ultimately wins/loses.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#360

Post by further_tech » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 2:34 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #344

further_tech wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, you are either not intelligent or actively trying to distort my answers. 1) The 1st simply gives you freedom of speech. It doesn't matter if it is a gossip about someone. 2) I clearly was referring to the article exposing Thiel as gay ( his motivation for this). Because it clearly did not openly humiliated him, his overstated battle clearly shows an inflated ego. Honestly, your answer and all the others sad…

> you are either not intelligent or actively trying to distort We've banned this account for repeatedly violating the HN guidelines.

Well, I simply pointed out hypotheses.

In any case, I don't care. This community is filled with mediocrity, idiocy and shallow-mindedness. An abstraction for the vicious culture that poisons and destroys the world with useless innovation.

Congrats! This wouldn't be possible without YC.