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Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

reuters.com

201–210 of 383 posts

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#201

Wait a minute. Gawker is no righteous hero here. Let's see if I understand correctly. Gawker outs Thiel (which is nobody's business, yet Gawker decided to make it people's business). Gawker at some point later posts an illegal SEX tape (again, nobody's business). Now, we're supposed to feel sorry for Gawker because Thiel wants to help out another person who was WRONGED by Gawker? Wow. Just wow.

I don't feel bad for Gawker at all. I do, however, feel concerned that a rich person like Thiel can buy litigation. That's a highly dangerous capability. He's using that power for good in this case, but I doubt he always will.

> I do, however, feel concerned that a rich person like Thiel can buy litigation. That's a highly dangerous capability.

Welcome to the legal system. Money allows you to mount lawsuit (frivolous or not) and mount effective defenses against them.

The problem is when there's an imbalance: when a tech giant sues a small start-up (e.g., Zynga suing over the "Saga" trademark) or when an individual elects not to sue a large organization because the costs are too high.

Thiel (and Newegg re: patent trolls, and EFF, and ALCU, and others) are evening that money balance so justice can actually be served.

Can they use this power for evil instead? Of course: and it happens every day already. That's the point.

The anti-Thiel arguments come down to: "Even though Gawker was proven guilty in a court of law, it's not fair because Hogan never should have been able to mount the lawsuit in the first place." In other words, Gawker should have won because Hogan has less money. All Thiel did is even the playing field.

If this was about freedom of the press, they would have won the lawsuit. They didn't. End of story.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#203
> That may actually help rebuild some of the lost trust between it and the public.

Oh please. This is the sort of thing journalists say that has no bearing on anything real, they just say it to make themselves the center of conversation. Lost trust my ass. Nobody trusts big American business, or big business everywhere. Commerce has always had a large element of adversarial conflict to it, the tug of war between the public will, exercised through politics and legislation, and markets is what produces social progress, not any kind of altruism.

This is really just the press industry rallying behind their own. They think they should just be able to say whatever the hell they want about whoever they want with no consequences whatsoever. They're the ones that want a legal advantage. You know why nobody sues the tabloids? They all have humongous legal teams, going up against them is like shooting peas at a brick wall. But they've created a business model around saying vicious, wrong things about people who did nothing to deserve such treatment.

So forgive me if I'm a tad bit skeptical.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#204
post #17

> Litigation finance is typically a business venture. It doesn’t become charity because a wealthy person uses it as a template for a personal crusade and then insists he’s doing everyone else a favor. Why? Many cases brought by individuals or groups on moral grounds have led the way to better governance. A lot of good work has been done by groups such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation. Why should individuals or g…

The subject of the case is a red herring. Typically in these situations, a settlement is reached or insurance covers the damages. That didn't happen. Thiel had an axe to grind against Gawker, invested $10m in the litigation, and pushed the case past settlement offers - even removing a claim that allowed insurance to cover damages. It focused on maximizing the damage to Gawker, which isn't what civil court is typicall…

Let's not forget that Gawker monied up ahead of the trial, too. In a January 2016 staff memo, Gawker CEO Nick Denton described an investment by Columbus Nova (controlled by Russian oligarch Viktor Vekselburg) as a way to make sure his company had the resources for a full-stakes court battle.

The judge in the case had recommended mediation, but both sides really wanted a big trial. So they got one.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#205
post #17

> Litigation finance is typically a business venture. It doesn’t become charity because a wealthy person uses it as a template for a personal crusade and then insists he’s doing everyone else a favor. Why? Many cases brought by individuals or groups on moral grounds have led the way to better governance. A lot of good work has been done by groups such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation. Why should individuals or g…

> Why? Many cases brought by individuals or groups on moral grounds have led the way to better governance. Intent matters. One of capitalism's great powers is harnessing the greedy and power-hungry and getting them to at least sometimes work for society. (It's not perfect, but it's better to have Bill Gates trying for a monopoly than starting land wars.) But that doesn't make them great-souled public benefactors. (Al…

> If Peter Thiel's goal was to help out defenseless individuals harmed by thoughtless journalists, that suggests one set of structures. E.g., a public nonprofit

This has popped up several times in this thread, and I don't see why it's true. There's no obligation, legal or moral, that philanthropy be coordinated through a nonprofit. The only reason for the nonprofit is to get tax advantages. If you're donating tens of million of dollars to a nonprofit, it'll be to one where you wield significant control (officially or not).

If Thiel's actions here were inappropriate, they'd be exactly as inappropriate if managed through a nonprofit.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#206
post #17

> Litigation finance is typically a business venture. It doesn’t become charity because a wealthy person uses it as a template for a personal crusade and then insists he’s doing everyone else a favor. Why? Many cases brought by individuals or groups on moral grounds have led the way to better governance. A lot of good work has been done by groups such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation. Why should individuals or g…

The subject of the case is a red herring. Typically in these situations, a settlement is reached or insurance covers the damages. That didn't happen. Thiel had an axe to grind against Gawker, invested $10m in the litigation, and pushed the case past settlement offers - even removing a claim that allowed insurance to cover damages. It focused on maximizing the damage to Gawker, which isn't what civil court is typicall…

Yes, Thiel was out for blood, but so what? There's nothing inherently wrong or illegal about feeling vengeful. It's a natural human emotion experienced and indulged by pretty much everyone at some point in time. It's not like we can eradicate it or make it illegal, so complaining about Thiel's goals or feelings seems like a waste of time to me.

The issue, as usual, should be with the system itself.

Is what happened here unjust? Is it wrong for Gawker to have had to pay the $140M? If you believe so, then your complaint should lie with the court. People should expect justice in court, rather than "typically" avoiding it via settlements and insurance. Our judicial system should be robust enough to make the motivations of a lawsuit's participants irrelevant. No matter how badly Thiel wants to destroy Gawker, they should only be liable for an appropriate amount of damages. If the court failed Gawker there, that's the court's fault.

On the flip side, if you believe the settlement was just, then it's Gawker's fault for doing something so bad that it cost them $140M in the first place.

EDIT: At least 6 downvotes now, but no replies. If you disagree, can you defend your reasoning at all?

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#207
post #17

> Litigation finance is typically a business venture. It doesn’t become charity because a wealthy person uses it as a template for a personal crusade and then insists he’s doing everyone else a favor. Why? Many cases brought by individuals or groups on moral grounds have led the way to better governance. A lot of good work has been done by groups such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation. Why should individuals or g…

The subject of the case is a red herring. Typically in these situations, a settlement is reached or insurance covers the damages. That didn't happen. Thiel had an axe to grind against Gawker, invested $10m in the litigation, and pushed the case past settlement offers - even removing a claim that allowed insurance to cover damages. It focused on maximizing the damage to Gawker, which isn't what civil court is typicall…

I don't want to directly comment on Thiel's actions, but one of the most annoying things in court cases that I care about is when it reaches a settlement, preventing precedent from being set, and allowing other actors to do the same thing as the defendants, knowing that somebody else is going to need to bring them to court in order for them to be held accountable. Settlement in cases can be a greedy/short term out that allows the same injustice the plaintiffs suffered to be perpetrated against others.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#208
post #17

> Litigation finance is typically a business venture. It doesn’t become charity because a wealthy person uses it as a template for a personal crusade and then insists he’s doing everyone else a favor. Why? Many cases brought by individuals or groups on moral grounds have led the way to better governance. A lot of good work has been done by groups such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation. Why should individuals or g…

The subject of the case is a red herring. Typically in these situations, a settlement is reached or insurance covers the damages. That didn't happen. Thiel had an axe to grind against Gawker, invested $10m in the litigation, and pushed the case past settlement offers - even removing a claim that allowed insurance to cover damages. It focused on maximizing the damage to Gawker, which isn't what civil court is typicall…

You can tell it's a hit piece because having a vendetta against someone outing a gay man is something most people would find perfectly acceptable and ruins the narrative.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it would only be scary if a media company was taken down by a rich entity simply litigating them until they couldn't afford to fight the lawsuits anymore. In this case, Gawker lost because they were in the wrong. I've read exactly two articles re: Thiel vs. Gawker, but....isn't that exactly what's happening? I don't see Gawker's "wrongness" as entirely relevant to the fact that Thiel is ostensibly subsidizing l…

He's also financing multiple cases, isn't he?

Not sure, but it sounds like he might be:

> That and a series of articles about his friends and others that he said “ruined people’s lives for no reason” drove Mr. Thiel to mount a clandestine war against Gawker. He funded a team of lawyers to find and help “victims” of the company’s coverage mount cases against Gawker. [1]

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/26/business/dealbook/peter-th...

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