Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers • Hacker News Board

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#251

Post by tomp » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 8:42 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #90

xenihn wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Many couples just do it that way because that's "how it's done" without really thinking about it My hunch is that you don't actually know any women in tech who have decided to take a leave from their careers (either temporarily or permanently) in order to raise their children, and your handle + the fact that you just made that account makes me think you're a troll. Many (most?) mothers suffer if they can't be around…

Strongly disagree, and I say that as a parent who loves his child. Raising kids is often hard unfulfilling manual labor, and leaving the workforce to do it leaves many women in precarious financial and social positions as a consequence. I know a middle-aged woman who left her job as a hospital exec to be a stay at home mom. Now the kids are grown, she's bored out of her mind, she's ineligible for any career that woul…

> Raising kids is often hard unfulfilling manual labor

As opposed to a job, which is often hard unfulfilling mental labor?

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#252

Post by tomp » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 8:46 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #94

throwaway293810 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, no, I don't think it's a burden and a sacrifice to take care of kids. From what I hear it's one of the most rewarding things in life, and I look forward to it (I'm in my late 20s and am thinking about having kids ten or so years from now). This is more in the context of career breaks, i.e., the current HN thread - in that context, taking time off a career is a burden. I actually do know a few couples who've had…

There is a huge cultural push for women to leave the workforce after having a kid, which you don't even really appreciate until you try to swim against the tide. After law school, my wife and I pursued the best jobs we could find, which left us working about 120 miles apart. We also had a baby. There was enormous pressure on her to make a career sacrifice to come work where I did, none for me to do the same. Even whe…

What kind of pressure was there? You, her family, your family, friends, coworkers, ...? Were they only saying that she should make the sacrifice (easy to ignore), or was she e.g. not promoted because of it (hard to ignore)?

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#253

Post by rimantas » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 8:49 AM UTC

nostrebored wrote: post #181

NTDF9 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> There are fewer women, proportionally, who "climb ladders" successfully. This implies that there are fewer capable women than men in the world. Or, they make different life choices. >> The mother being present is not required for a child to be exclusively breastfed anymore. Pumping is quite effective. The only argument for only the woman to be taking the time off and making these career compromises is one that vie…

>>Don't be a good parent. Nice to see where this is going. >>Get this law to treat women the same as men. Wrt to parental leave, that's what I've been advocating for throughout this thread. I think that the social and legal status quo sets up women as the caregiver defaults, which is harmful to women. >>Women can play point guards when they start having families with deadbeats. Or, men could leave their jobs and let…

> I think that the social and legal status quo sets up women > as the caregiver defaults, which is harmful to women.

That's quite sexist claim.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#254

Post by mikekchar » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 8:59 AM UTC

maerF0x0 wrote: post #216

mikekchar wrote: post #213

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To my knowledge none of these groups who champion women in IT seem to talk about maternity leave. It mystifies me to be honest. The situation with maternal leave is very problematic because it is available to women only in most countries. Women get about 10 years into their career and decide to have families. In high tech, my experience has been that maternity leave benefits are common. So women often take up to a ye…

interesting point, you're advocating making the maternity leave transferable somehow?

Actually, while I wouldn't be opposed to that, I'm not sure it's the best idea. So if a woman is entitled to 12 months, she can take the first 6 and then transfer the rest to her spouse. I think some countries work that way (possibly even my home country of Canada, but I haven't lived there for a long time, so I'm not sure... I know some of my friends have done something similar).

However, I worry that there will be pressure for women to take the entire leave and not transfer it. I think it would be more beneficial to offer a reasonable leave for women to recover from childbirth and to spend that very important initial time with their child, and then after that is finished the spouse can take a leave. Since it is something added, then I think it would encourage more people to take it. I may be wrong about that, though.

The main thing is that I think since women are forced to take leave in order to have families it puts them at a disadvantage. Because it is beneficial for the child to extend that leave as long as possible, they end up sacrificing their careers for their children. I think that's perfectly acceptable, but I think it would be better to make it a reasonable and realistic option for the spouse to make that sacrifice instead.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#255

Post by arsenide » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 9:06 AM UTC

HarshTruth wrote: post #202

wpietri wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason women dominate in certain fields is that those fields were generally seen as less important, so women were pushed into them. E.g., doctors were men, women were nurses, and there was an enormous pay and prestige difference between the two. (Hint: it did not favor the nurses.) If you're interested in learning more, researching "pink ghetto" will get you started.

Its actually the other way around. Men face more pressure to earn a higher income than women, so more men enter higher paying careers. 1. Women prefer to marry a guy who makes more money than her. So there is significant sexual pressure to become a high status ($) man. 2. Men (statistically) can't marry up large income gaps. So they know that what ever lifestyle they want, they have to be solely responsible for it. W…

"Men face more pressure to earn a higher income than women, so more men enter higher paying careers."

Citation?

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#256

Post by Sacho » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 9:19 AM UTC

morgtheborg wrote: post #231

HarshTruth wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The immense pressure is the women's own doing. Women largely prefer to partner with men who make more money than them, so naturally if one partner becomes a stay at home parent it makes more sense economically for it to be the woman. If women don't like the pressure to be a stay at home parent, then women can start marrying men who make less money than them (men don't as a group place little value on their partner ma…

As a women who would love to have my future husband raise the kids, let me tell you it's not easy to find an intelligent man in a big city who is willing to stay home and raise children.

Of course, just like it's difficult for such a man to find a woman wanting to be the careerist in the family, because both groups are minorities.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#257

Post by tomp » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 9:20 AM UTC

nostrebored wrote: post #105

jfe wrote: post #28

i have trouble accepting the idea that fewer women in tech is a problem. it's not that i want to discourage women -- or anyone -- from going into tech. i just don't believe in encouraging anyone to do anything in particular, except what they enjoy. i'd appreciate it if someone can persuade me that the hype is true so i no longer need to feel like a black sheep. but.. for one, the fact that there are fewer women than…

1. When it becomes a systemic problem, i.e. women earn a significantly lower amount based on their job choices, there is an issue. The narrative of the pay-gap has largely been framed around pay for the same job, when in reality the consideration we should be making is pay-gap based on profession. The reason being that it exposes a flaw in the way that our society is socializing young women. The idea that we have tha…

> When it becomes a systemic problem, i.e. women earn a significantly lower amount based on their job choices, there is an issue.

I disagree. E.g. in the Netherlands, many women (mothers) choose to work part-time (4 hours) to be able to spend more time at home (presumably with their kids). I think it's great that the governments supports this choice, more governments should follow!

(You could use the same argument for other job choices; maybe more women choose to be e.g. teachers despite the lower salary, because they enjoy working with kids!)

Sure, they earn (much) less, but in exchange they have a higher quality of life, so I see it as a perfectly valid choice/tradeoff.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#258

Post by soft_dev_person » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 9:31 AM UTC

hsubi wrote: post #82

Is it just me or does anyone find these type of groups too career oriented? Don't get me wrong, I am a female dev and I'm all for equal opportunity and working towards supportive environment for any gender or non-gendered, sexual orientation or no orientation. I don't really find these organisations really that helpful in bringing everyone together. I'm a nerd by nature before I knew computers existed and becoming a…

As a programmer and nerd (who happens to be male but it's not really relevant in this context) I can relate to the expectations of career advancement meaning moving into management and away from the joys of diving deep into the technical aspects and solving technical problems.

I just want to be a great programmer, and would've loved a way to signal advancement of career without moving into people management or sales. Not so many work places support this beyond "senior developer/sw engineer", though.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#259

Post by alphydan » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 9:38 AM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #153

ankey1 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And now you know how it feels to be the only woman engineer on a team of 20 engineers. It's awkward and sometimes hard for women engineers like me to focus on our jobs because of the awkwardness contributing to hostile work environments. And this is why it's awesome that YC is supporting Women Who Code.

Sure. Just so we are clear though, there is a huge difference between being regarded and treated as a potential pedophile/kidnapper (father at a playground) vs. simply an outsider. http://www.freerangekids.com/thanks-for-assuming-im-a-pedoph...

I don't think "simply an outsider" covers many of the experiences described by some women in tech: Groping, sexual harassment, assumptions on getting the job on looks, over-scrutiny of their work, etc ...

This is not every woman's experience, but neither is the pedophile one. I have worked at an all girls school and everyone - parents, students, children was fine with it.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#260

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 9:39 AM UTC

_1qd4 wrote: post #60

belorn wrote: post #20

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I find it quite interesting that a similar number of 50% of men who enter the teacher profession also leaves while the number for women is about half. In stark contrast however, the quote text, the theory on why men drops out of female dominated professions share nothing in common with the theories on why women leave male dominated. In a 2009 report by the Swedish national agency, they argue that the reason why peopl…

In Ontario, male teachers are not allowed to take children to the washroom, even if the child is a boy. This is a problem because if a child with a disability needs to use the washroom, he needs to wait until a female staff member is available. I understand why men would drop out of the school system. Before you even start, you're already considered a predator.

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