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Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

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Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#101
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you need to make a LOT of money to pay for daycare per kid That's true. But as it happens, engineers do make a lot of money. Many of us even make enough to support one-income families. You can't just assume senior engineers leave tech because of childcare costs, when most of us make well over the amount where you "might as well just stay home."

I don't think that the parent comment is assuming one way or another, just offering a plausible explanation given the very limited perspective of the metrics being quoted. For example, how does this compare to other trends for female jobs in other sectors? How do the figures compare when you separate the population between those with children and those without? When someone wants to make a claim like: "These numbers…

> I am a libertarian so ultimately I believe that everyone should be free to make their own decisions even if there are gender preferences at play. Not saying there aren't issues, but simply saying, "X is anti-women, because only Y% are female," is academically dishonest.

It's not academically dishonest, it's the application of a reasonable epistomological presumption: we presume that observations are not caused by biological differences without concrete evidence of those differences. The corollary to that is that disparities in outcome are prima facie evidence of disparities in opportunity.

It's not that people are unwilling to acknowledge biological differences between genders. Nobody argues that women have as much upper body strength as men. Rather, people are aware of the longstanding practice of chaulking things up to biological differences, and adopt a presumption against such explanations. You can see that clearly in this thread, where people are arguing that women might be biologically predisposed to being primary caregivers without any concrete evidence backing that up.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#102
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>i just don't believe in encouraging anyone to do anything in particular, except what they enjoy. There are plenty of women who would enjoy being a developer but it wasn't presented to them as a realistic option in their childhood, or it wasn't a welcoming atmosphere for them when they started learning about it.

Being a developer was not presented to me as a realistic option in my childhood either, mainly because most of the many schools I've attended did not have any sort of computer science curriculum until the senior year. Nor did I have anyone in my circles interested enough in programming until I've already picked my major. Does that mean I now qualify for some special victim treatment just like those women? Let's be ho…

Yes, because your childhood and socialization is the same as the countless women who were raised to think that their value is an extension of their sexuality or partner. You did not face the same sets of problems that women did. Presenting your "analagous" situation is entirely disingenuous.

If you want your argument to mean something, it can be related to gender. It can be related to a critical analysis of the way that our society treats and raises boys and girls and the implications that this has on their lives and livelihoods.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for one, the fact that there are fewer women than men in any field, computing or otherwise, is neither good nor bad. the disproportionate number of women in nursing is not seen as a problem, but somehow it has become one in tech. I don't agree. I think the gender disparity in nursing is just as much a problem. I think it's a significantly less tractable problem though, because I don't think the monetary incentives…

> The median salary for software engineers could be reduced by 25% and it would still be a good career choice. So there's no real reason not to encourage more people to enter the field. Nursing has a substantially lower median salary. That's not accurate, at least when controlling for location. Going by BLS data, the difference between RNs and software engineers is less than 25% in LA, NYC, Boston, Chicago, San Jose…

It's not useful to control for location without controlling for number of jobs available. What I'm really trying to approximate is "How difficult is it to get a job making at least a six-figure salary as a nurse or a software developer?" In SF for example, there are at least twice as many software developer positions as nursing positions. So while the median may be higher for nurses, it's still harder to get a high-paid nursing job than a similarly paid software job.

http://www.bls.gov/regions/west/news-release/occupationalemp...

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#104
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>i just don't believe in encouraging anyone to do anything in particular, except what they enjoy. There are plenty of women who would enjoy being a developer but it wasn't presented to them as a realistic option in their childhood, or it wasn't a welcoming atmosphere for them when they started learning about it.

You could swap the gender and career with just about any field in either end of this list[0] and have the same argument, but there is a razor focus on this one specific field/gender combination. [0]: https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/chal...

And the majority of the fields leading up to tech, excluding a few outliers like Sales reps, fall under categories in which men have an undeniable advantage as employees. Computer Science and other STEM fields are not limited by physical capabilities.

Also, I'd be interested to see if the rates of women in AE/IE are going up, holding steady, or if like CS they are declining. The declining rates of women entering our field is truly worrying.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#105
post #28

i have trouble accepting the idea that fewer women in tech is a problem. it's not that i want to discourage women -- or anyone -- from going into tech. i just don't believe in encouraging anyone to do anything in particular, except what they enjoy. i'd appreciate it if someone can persuade me that the hype is true so i no longer need to feel like a black sheep. but.. for one, the fact that there are fewer women than…

1. When it becomes a systemic problem, i.e. women earn a significantly lower amount based on their job choices, there is an issue. The narrative of the pay-gap has largely been framed around pay for the same job, when in reality the consideration we should be making is pay-gap based on profession.

The reason being that it exposes a flaw in the way that our society is socializing young women. The idea that we have that women go into non-profits at an absurdly high rate because they have some inherent biological difference just doesn't make sense based on the neuroscience research that we have today.

A huge proportional difference in any field that does not have a physical limitation (i.e. if women were 1% of lumberjacks I would not see that as a problem) is worrisome.

The large proportion of women in nursing is emblematic of a problem -- it's a field with ridiculously long hours, high rates of injury, and entirely focused around caregiving.

While a higher number of available candidates in a field will decrease our salaries, is that a valid reason to keep women out of high-paying fields? You could say the same for any other engineering profession.

I agree that the wwcode claims are nebulous.

I don't doubt that women who make more invest more in their communities, I do doubt that it's 90%, but in a way I feel like this is also part of the problem, and I would be saddened if women invested 90% of their income in their communities. It would mean that the problems I'm talking about above are not solved, and are rather being financially and socially perpetuated.

Meh

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#106
post #96

I don't understand this constant fight to have 50%. There are capable women who climb ladders successfully. The other women who couldn't, simply couldn't, just like many men who couldn't. Also, pregnancy and breastfeeding cannot be done by a man. A woman who aspires to be a mother will have to compromise on other things to be a mother, which probably will include a compromise in career. A man who aspires to be a fath…

So you think that there are more incapable women than men in the world?

Women are capable of working in fields like tech through pregnancy. We have breast pumps and formula. If you're going to complain about maternity leave, why is the man not taking paternity leave to help his partner and bond with his child?

Why does it have to be the man making all of these decisions? Why can't both partners work together ot support a child?

Why is motherhood viewed in the ridiculous, rigid way that we see it today a given? The thing is, given attitudes like yours (which are emblematic of societies) you're presented a false dichotomy of "career-woman" or the martyrdom of modern motherhood.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#107

I would be interested in the number of men or women who leave tech because the next promotion effectively is a promotion out of tech and into management. What is the record like with tech companies with engineer tracks vs normal up or out? How big is the male female divide in those cases - and is the diff significant?

Half of the women who leave (so roughly 25%) leave tech fields altogether.

The numbers are fudged such that women in management are still considered as in tech. Most "women in tech" numbers that you see include PMs, POs, IT workers, Support Engineers, etc.

The male female divide is actually quite large in management. Women are promoted to management disproportionately (hypotheses include "better people skills" and a distrust of their technical ability).

"We find that senior technical women are significantly more likely to be in a manager position (36.9%) than are men (19%); conversely, men at the high level are significantly more likely to be in an individual contributor position (80.6%) than are women (63.1%)." [0]

"45 percent of women technologists felt like women were being “pushed” into execution roles, and 42 percent of women reported that women do not have equal access to technology creation roles." [0]

[0] http://gender.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/Senior-Techni...

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that the parent comment is assuming one way or another, just offering a plausible explanation given the very limited perspective of the metrics being quoted. For example, how does this compare to other trends for female jobs in other sectors? How do the figures compare when you separate the population between those with children and those without? When someone wants to make a claim like: "These numbers…

> I am a libertarian so ultimately I believe that everyone should be free to make their own decisions even if there are gender preferences at play. Not saying there aren't issues, but simply saying, "X is anti-women, because only Y% are female," is academically dishonest. It's not academically dishonest, it's the application of a reasonable epistomological presumption: we presume that observations are not caused by b…

> "we presume that observations are not caused by biological differences without concrete evidence of those differences. The corollary to that is that disparities in outcome are prima facie evidence of disparities in opportunity."

Ummm...the first part is fine, the corollary reasoning is what is academically dishonest. Prima facie is not academically acceptable when determining causal relationships in statistics. The illustration of this is why the power of Hypothesis testing is centered around rejecting the Null hypothesis. Failure to reject the null hypothesis doesn't confirm/prove the null hypothesis as true.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#109
post #90
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Many couples just do it that way because that's "how it's done" without really thinking about it My hunch is that you don't actually know any women in tech who have decided to take a leave from their careers (either temporarily or permanently) in order to raise their children, and your handle + the fact that you just made that account makes me think you're a troll. Many (most?) mothers suffer if they can't be around…

Strongly disagree, and I say that as a parent who loves his child. Raising kids is often hard unfulfilling manual labor, and leaving the workforce to do it leaves many women in precarious financial and social positions as a consequence. I know a middle-aged woman who left her job as a hospital exec to be a stay at home mom. Now the kids are grown, she's bored out of her mind, she's ineligible for any career that woul…

> Raising kids is often hard unfulfilling manual labor

I don't see how raising a human can be classified as unfulfilling. Is making a CRUD app really more fulfilling than raising a child to a happy, healthy, well-adjusted adult? That seems an order of magnitude more fulfilling.

As for the ex-exec who's now bored, that can also be seen as a symptom of "career worship" that projects such as the OP seem to focus on. There's a lot you can do with your time so you don't end up bored. Learn to cook, sew, program for fun, read, write...

It seems like the #1 problem is that people are basing their identities on their career and then finding themselves lost when they end that career to raise a family. Even worse they are resenting the children and partner because they're not on the career track anymore.

A career is a burden not a privilege. People would be a lot happier if they saw through the marketing hype and realized that.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#110
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strongly disagree, and I say that as a parent who loves his child. Raising kids is often hard unfulfilling manual labor, and leaving the workforce to do it leaves many women in precarious financial and social positions as a consequence. I know a middle-aged woman who left her job as a hospital exec to be a stay at home mom. Now the kids are grown, she's bored out of her mind, she's ineligible for any career that woul…

> Raising kids is often hard unfulfilling manual labor I don't see how raising a human can be classified as unfulfilling. Is making a CRUD app really more fulfilling than raising a child to a happy, healthy, well-adjusted adult? That seems an order of magnitude more fulfilling. As for the ex-exec who's now bored, that can also be seen as a symptom of "career worship" that projects such as the OP seem to focus on. The…

Just out of curiosity, what is the largest # of consecutive hours you have been responsible for a young child? I love my son and watching him progress over the last 11 months has been amazing but the day-to-day of raising a child can be mind numbingly boring.
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