Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers • Hacker News Board

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#201

Post by deciplex » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 4:29 AM UTC

H0n3sty wrote: post #189

deciplex wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately fighting discrimination purely by working to eliminate instances of it and revert to a gender-neutral (or race-neutral, or sexual orientation-neutral, etc) method of operation does not work. You must counter discrimination by elevating the oppressed group i.e. giving them privileges the already-privileged group does not possess. This is the basis of affirmative action, for example. It works because we c…

What if the "privilege" you think you see is actually a difference in average ability or preferences between groups of people that are in fact different from each other? Affirmative action does not help the groups it is directed towards, it simply handicaps them further by preventing them from being properly matched to their level or ability. Clarence Thomas recently wrote about this in detail... Slaveholders argued…

Promoting university enrollment for disadvantaged students really, like fucking really, is not the same as enslaving them. Likewise segregation was bad for a host of reasons among which was social isolation and misappropriation of resources (i.e. whites-only schools were well-funded while blacks-only schools were left to languish), both of which affirmative action is designed to remedy (and objectively does remedy based on fifty years studying the effects of these policies).

Clarence Thomas is a pretty shitty Justice tbh. Recommendation rejected.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#202

Post by HarshTruth » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 4:33 AM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #122

H0n3sty wrote: post #117

What would people think if the genders were reversed and this institution was discriminating against women and only helping men? Women have a far larger presence in other fields like biology and education, but you don't see new organizations popping up every other month to change that in favor of men. Discrimination like this should be illegal.

The reason women dominate in certain fields is that those fields were generally seen as less important, so women were pushed into them. E.g., doctors were men, women were nurses, and there was an enormous pay and prestige difference between the two. (Hint: it did not favor the nurses.) If you're interested in learning more, researching "pink ghetto" will get you started.

Its actually the other way around. Men face more pressure to earn a higher income than women, so more men enter higher paying careers.

1. Women prefer to marry a guy who makes more money than her. So there is significant sexual pressure to become a high status ($) man.

2. Men (statistically) can't marry up large income gaps. So they know that what ever lifestyle they want, they have to be solely responsible for it.

Women on the other hand have more freedom to do what they desire since men care far less about their partners income, and women have the economic security of being able to marry a higher income partner.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#203

Post by H0n3sty » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 4:36 AM UTC

nostrebored wrote: post #121

falsestprophet wrote: post #118

The two sexes are not identical. Boy are you going to be surprised about what pants are hiding.

You know exactly what I mean. Arguing for the idea of "brain sex" is essentialist and ridiculous. There's nothing that makes my wife or the average woman a less capable programmer than anyone else in the field other than a consistent problem with socialization.

Men and women have been subject to different pressures throughout the evolution of our species. Its seems unlikely that this would not lead to some differences either on average or across the populations.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#204

Post by HarshTruth » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 4:44 AM UTC

nostrebored wrote: post #105

jfe wrote: post #28

i have trouble accepting the idea that fewer women in tech is a problem. it's not that i want to discourage women -- or anyone -- from going into tech. i just don't believe in encouraging anyone to do anything in particular, except what they enjoy. i'd appreciate it if someone can persuade me that the hype is true so i no longer need to feel like a black sheep. but.. for one, the fact that there are fewer women than…

1. When it becomes a systemic problem, i.e. women earn a significantly lower amount based on their job choices, there is an issue. The narrative of the pay-gap has largely been framed around pay for the same job, when in reality the consideration we should be making is pay-gap based on profession. The reason being that it exposes a flaw in the way that our society is socializing young women. The idea that we have tha…

Women earn lower because they choose to earn lower. Men face more pressure to earn a higher income than women, so naturally men dominate the high income fields. Then, once married, it makes more sense (economically) for the lower earning partner (the woman) to become the primary parent further widening the pay gap.

Want to fix it? Tell women to instead (statistically, as a group) start marrying down in income. Then men will face less pressure to earn a high income (and be able to, like women now, marry up for economic security), so will have more freedom to choose, and pay gaps will equalize.

The reason women go into non-profits is that it doesn't significantly effect their sexual selection. A man who does so would be significantly limiting his sexual opportunities. You don't need neuroscience to explain it. Men face every economic pressure that women do AND a sexual pressure. So naturally men earn more.

I would also be hesitant to try and fix it because the entire human endeavor is built around the male's desire for high status, which is fundamentally sexually motivated. Fix it and humanity stagnates.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#205

Post by douche » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 4:45 AM UTC

H0n3sty wrote: post #193

zassmin wrote: post #2

It's an honor to be a part of YC S16! As an organization, we've been committed to making sure our members stay in tech and excel in the industry. We are excited to work with our Partners at YC and further enhance the Women Who Code experience. :)

Do you agree with the recent diversity and inclusion effort at github which noted that (6) some of the biggest barriers to progress are white women ? http://www.businessinsider.com/diversity-guru-discusses-whit...

I'm not sure I agree with it, but there may be a point there that upper and middle class white women playing the victim card discredits it for those who have had more serious barriers to entry.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#206

Post by HarshTruth » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 4:47 AM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #87

bastijn wrote: post #29

I wonder how much of the balance difference is due to boys liking tech more than girls. I'd say that if you ask 10-15 year olds, who hardly think about their future, about what they do in their free time you will find equal balance on the reply "gaming/stuff on my PC". Most girls don't like it, that translates to later stages in life I guess. Never see the reports for other fields where females excel in acceptance ra…

> I don't see people fighting there for equal rights. every time the gender imbalance comes up on HN someone makes the same comment you have. Did you try Google? Because those programmes are trivially easy to find. People will often make a similar comment about the lack of programmes to get women into construction or mining. But those programmes are really easy to find too.

Well clearly they aren't as common as ones for tech, or else OP would have seen them.

If both types of programmes have the same presence it is vanishingly unlikely that OP would not be aware of them.

So either he is a liar or your overestimate their presence..

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#207

Post by H0n3sty » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 4:48 AM UTC

deciplex wrote: post #201

H0n3sty wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the "privilege" you think you see is actually a difference in average ability or preferences between groups of people that are in fact different from each other? Affirmative action does not help the groups it is directed towards, it simply handicaps them further by preventing them from being properly matched to their level or ability. Clarence Thomas recently wrote about this in detail... Slaveholders argued…

Promoting university enrollment for disadvantaged students really, like fucking really , is not the same as enslaving them. Likewise segregation was bad for a host of reasons among which was social isolation and misappropriation of resources (i.e. whites-only schools were well-funded while blacks-only schools were left to languish), both of which affirmative action is designed to remedy (and objectively does remedy b…

But isolating/segregating with women-only groups like this is good?

I hope your dislike of Justice Thomas is just because you don't agree with his politics. I think your use of profanity is inappropriate regardless of your reasoning.

Perhaps you would like economist Thomas Sowell better. Or perhaps you're unwilling to give honest consideration to other views.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#208

Post by bigger_cheese » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 4:49 AM UTC

saiya-jin wrote: post #64

is it really true that women don't get promoted in engineering as much? that's a honest question, the only few I've met did not aspire for higher and higher positions intensively, rather enjoyed what they were doing (that could be said about most of the guys too). I am all for equal situations for both genders, but my assumption was that we already +-have it in western societies, thus such a move would make guys actu…

>I admit other branches of engineering might look differently, no clue about it.

I'm a materials engineer I work at a large scale industrial plant (1000+ employees). Our diversity statistics are probably even bleaker than amongst software/IT type engineers. There are woman in engineering management positions at my work. Not a lot -the number probably reflects the overall workforce makeup. I'd estimate my workplace is greater than 95% male.

Some areas of the company are much more diverse than engineering, notably HR, Accounting/Finance and relevant to this topic our IT department.

My Sister is a mechanical engineer she works in government planning. Previous to this role she worked at a power plant. According to her the public sector much more diverse than private.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#209

Post by hkmurakami » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 4:50 AM UTC

_1qd4 wrote: post #60

belorn wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it quite interesting that a similar number of 50% of men who enter the teacher profession also leaves while the number for women is about half. In stark contrast however, the quote text, the theory on why men drops out of female dominated professions share nothing in common with the theories on why women leave male dominated. In a 2009 report by the Swedish national agency, they argue that the reason why peopl…

In Ontario, male teachers are not allowed to take children to the washroom, even if the child is a boy. This is a problem because if a child with a disability needs to use the washroom, he needs to wait until a female staff member is available. I understand why men would drop out of the school system. Before you even start, you're already considered a predator.

There was an anonymous Japanese post by a preschool teacher that echoed similar sentiments. The main reason he quit was because the parents treated him with suspicion for having deviant tendencies.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#210

Post by hkmurakami » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 4:52 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #65

busterarm wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotal, but my cousin was a primary school teacher and faced an incredible amount of hostility because of his gender from parents and colleagues and left for construction after 2 years.

Westerners seem to have a serious distrust in men when it comes to young children. A woman talking to kids in a park is most obviously a mom. A man talking to kids in a park is most obviously a paedophile.

Seems to be the case in the East as well, judging from what I've read.