Owncloud has been forked into Nextcloud • Hacker News Board

Re: Owncloud has been forked into Nextcloud

#101

Post by simonebrunozzi » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 8:27 PM UTC

mahyarm wrote: post #91

alexggordon wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replying to my own comment, because I'm out of the edit time-range and this kind of blew up. If I had to point the discussion of this comment, I'd point it away from what I did wrong personally (I know I f*cked up in probably more than one way). What I learned from this is that there are no situations in which I would personally host a file server of this feature level and control over my documents. I think "all in o…

This is why you want client side encrypted clients who treat your NAS/Cloud Account/HDD as dumb storage. This way it's easy to immediately verify on your client computer that entire CRUD cycle works fine, and continues to work fine. It also allows you to have simple redundancy, so if your NAS setup fucks up, the cloud account and external hard drive version is still there.

Exactly this.

Re: Owncloud has been forked into Nextcloud

#102

Post by alexggordon » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 8:30 PM UTC

notatoad wrote: post #92

thomnottom wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess the question I raise is, given my experience "can you prove to me that I can absolutely trust you with all my data"? But the answer to that is "no". All of the time. No matter who you are asking it about. There is always the possibility of someone - no matter how much you trust them or pay them - screwing up your data. Including yourself.

>There is always the possibility of someone - no matter how much you trust them or pay them - screwing up your data. Including yourself. Especially yourself. I trust a product with dedicated administrators who do nothing but keep people's data safe to do a much better job than i could ever do myself. I don't want that kind of responsibility when google and dropbox are willing to do it for me for a couple bucks a mont…

Yeah, pretty much summarizes my fears with Owncloud. Not only that, but as mentioned before, I no longer have any desire to manage my own large scale storage (NAS/Raid, really anything), so that compounds my own fears with Owncloud.

Re: Owncloud has been forked into Nextcloud

#103

Post by toomuchtodo » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 8:32 PM UTC

alexggordon wrote: post #100

toomuchtodo wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dump GPG and Truecrypt files right into my 1TB Dropbox folder. Works fine, $10/month. I'd never go back to managing my own NAS locally.

Have you tried out dropbox infinite yet with that setup?

Not yet, although its on my TODO list.

Re: Owncloud has been forked into Nextcloud

#104

Post by tomc1985 » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 8:36 PM UTC

CaptSpify wrote: post #95

tomc1985 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, what, everyone is cool with owncloud pushing encryption-breaking updates? What the fuck is that about? The way apologists step up to the defense of stuff like this is appalling. The 'hard' stuff like this is supposed to be dealt with before the public release. Just because one has a backup doesn't mean that other programmers should force them to rely on it (whether they intended to or not... the point is that thi…

I don't think I've seen anyone say owncloud is not responsible. Yes, they fucked up, and royally. But in the end, you can't trust them to not fuck up. You have to trust that they will make a mistake, so be prepared for it. Doing backups right is just really hard.

Maybe, but at the time of writing many of the responses here felt like the comment I originally replied to -- splitting hairs over pedantics and blaming the user for not testing his backups well enough. I still feel very strongly that he shouldn't have to

Re: Owncloud has been forked into Nextcloud

#105

Post by Renner1 » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 8:36 PM UTC

A year ago I reviewed most of the popular "Self-hosted 'Cloud'" packages and found they all had pretty ugly history (security vulnerabilities in particular) and the technologies used didn't inspire confidence in the developers (when data security and integrity are on the table, PHP developers wouldn't be my first choice, nor any choice).

Are there any decent tools out there today or is it still the same situation?

Re: Owncloud has been forked into Nextcloud

#106

Post by rhinoceraptor » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 8:51 PM UTC

IgorPartola wrote: post #61

I like how OwnCloud was characterized on Bad Voltage (paraphrasing here): "It's as if someone a few years ago wrote down their definition of cloud and sent it back in time to 1996. Then a bunch of PHP developers in 1996 implemented it knowing nothing about what they were doing and then sent the code back to present day." That's not to say I don't appreciate the fact that ownCloud exists, but I find it much harder to…

I tried Owncloud a year or two ago, the feature set is pretty remarkable for an open source project. But between user error, software upgrades, or bugs, relying on it is just not viable. There's been too many horror stories of data loss and corruption to trust it.

Re: Owncloud has been forked into Nextcloud

#107

Post by CaptSpify » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 8:54 PM UTC

tomc1985 wrote: post #104

CaptSpify wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I've seen anyone say owncloud is not responsible. Yes, they fucked up, and royally. But in the end, you can't trust them to not fuck up. You have to trust that they will make a mistake, so be prepared for it. Doing backups right is just really hard.

Maybe, but at the time of writing many of the responses here felt like the comment I originally replied to -- splitting hairs over pedantics and blaming the user for not testing his backups well enough. I still feel very strongly that he shouldn't have to

> I still feel very strongly that he shouldn't have to

As nice as that idea is, I don't think we have the tech yet to fully trust someone else with your data. You have to test it out that your backups work. Anyone who tells you otherwise is selling snake-oil at best.

Re: Owncloud has been forked into Nextcloud

#108

Post by mahyarm » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 9:01 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #97

mahyarm wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why you want client side encrypted clients who treat your NAS/Cloud Account/HDD as dumb storage. This way it's easy to immediately verify on your client computer that entire CRUD cycle works fine, and continues to work fine. It also allows you to have simple redundancy, so if your NAS setup fucks up, the cloud account and external hard drive version is still there.

I dump GPG and Truecrypt files right into my 1TB Dropbox folder. Works fine, $10/month. I'd never go back to managing my own NAS locally.

I do something similar too, but I have around 1TB of data, so a full restoration will be painful. Remembering to plug in an external hard drive is irritating so I want to get a NAS that my laptop auto connects to, like time machine. What do you think?

Re: Owncloud has been forked into Nextcloud

#109

Post by toomuchtodo » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 9:04 PM UTC

mahyarm wrote: post #108

toomuchtodo wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dump GPG and Truecrypt files right into my 1TB Dropbox folder. Works fine, $10/month. I'd never go back to managing my own NAS locally.

I do something similar too, but I have around 1TB of data, so a full restoration will be painful. Remembering to plug in an external hard drive is irritating so I want to get a NAS that my laptop auto connects to, like time machine. What do you think?

Time Machine would work. Backblaze.com is an option as well ($5/month for unlimited storage, they'll backup an external drive) if you're looking for offsite backups.

Re: Owncloud has been forked into Nextcloud

#110

Post by mcherm » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 9:05 PM UTC

CaptSpify wrote: post #95

tomc1985 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, what, everyone is cool with owncloud pushing encryption-breaking updates? What the fuck is that about? The way apologists step up to the defense of stuff like this is appalling. The 'hard' stuff like this is supposed to be dealt with before the public release. Just because one has a backup doesn't mean that other programmers should force them to rely on it (whether they intended to or not... the point is that thi…

I don't think I've seen anyone say owncloud is not responsible. Yes, they fucked up, and royally. But in the end, you can't trust them to not fuck up. You have to trust that they will make a mistake, so be prepared for it. Doing backups right is just really hard.

> Doing backups right is just really hard.

Which, I think, was alexggordon's point. That he no longer wanted to manage the data himself because it was a hard problem, better managed by teams of professionals who have the time to do things like verify backups because they can amortize the cost of that effort over tens of thousands of customers.