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Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

reuters.com

211–220 of 383 posts

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#211
post #17

> Litigation finance is typically a business venture. It doesn’t become charity because a wealthy person uses it as a template for a personal crusade and then insists he’s doing everyone else a favor. Why? Many cases brought by individuals or groups on moral grounds have led the way to better governance. A lot of good work has been done by groups such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation. Why should individuals or g…

Note that the only entities complaining about this are themselves journalists. They're just closing ranks.

> Note that the only entities complaining about this are themselves journalists. They're just closing ranks

It would have been hilarious if someone had similarly casually dismissed the uproar software engineers were making over Oracle v Google: Note that the only entities complaining about API copyrights are themselves developers. They're just closing ranks

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#213
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who said deference to those in power? I would hope a free press has the respect not to invade the privacy of private citizens. Do you honestly think the videotape of the sexual exploits of a private citizen is somehow worthy of protection under freedom of the press? Not to mention the tape was illegally procured and Gawker continued to act in flagrant violation of the court ordered redactions. You hear deference and…

> Who said deference to those in power? You didn't specify who the press is supposed to defer to. So the obvious assumption is "everybody including those in power", especially since we're talking about Peter Thiel who has a not insignificant amount of power due to his wealth. I don't understand why you keep bringing up the News International voicemail hack which has nothing to do with Gawker and was almost universall…

I raise News International as an example of the worst kinds of media behaviour, an example mirrored by the Gawker illegality in publishing Hogan's private videotape.

The two events are part of a larger narrative (for me) in which Thiel is attempting to redress. That narrative is inspired by his own negative treatment in outing his sexuality.

You also said something disturbing..."voicemail hack ...almost universally condemned because it targeted victims and those with almost no power."

Why on earth do you think it becomes morally justified for for-profit media entities to hack and invade the private lives of citizens simply because they have achieved a fame or some power in some sphere?

That is mind-boggling. You are saying that if your father or mother or sister or you became famous you would consent to the public destroying your private life through illegal actions in order to sell papers or generate clickbait.

Seriously, how can you reconcile that?

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#214
post #17

> Litigation finance is typically a business venture. It doesn’t become charity because a wealthy person uses it as a template for a personal crusade and then insists he’s doing everyone else a favor. Why? Many cases brought by individuals or groups on moral grounds have led the way to better governance. A lot of good work has been done by groups such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation. Why should individuals or g…

The media sees Silicon Valley as a competitor. A natural enemy.

The Valley after all deals with distribution of information on a massive scale. Traditionally this was a position held by either the Government or the Media. The state is still in the game for the usual reason of having access to unparalleled force on demand. The media on the other side has been much diminished by the Net, which is not what you'd expect if you thought they were information gathering and disseminating organizations. They deplore it!

In fact their power stems from the ability to form opinion and synchronize the mood of mass numbers of people. If the world is the Middle Ages then the Media is the Witchfinder General. If the Witch is a person, the tabloids typically deal with it. If the Witch is an idea, the broadsheets do it while congratulating themselves on their distinction to the tabloids.

This is all natural behavior of people, but it becomes focused like a laser on the whims of the opinion making classes. Sometimes journalists, typically of the Harvard School, sometimes those paying them to direct the faucet like advertisers or 'secret source' officials. The media has a similar role to the owner of a military garrison at a strategic river bend. The river and its traffic are wholly natural but the garrison is used to regulate it.

Suppose that the media were not the opinion forming organs of the people. What then? Chaos? Anarchy? Dogs and cats living together? No.

In fact people would naturally talk to each other on the new medium of information. We'd continue to develop tumblrs and 4chans. Thousands of small communities gossiping away about whatever they believe concerns them. Sometimes they would go overboard, but groups have an instinct for self preservation and mostly self regulate.

What would be diminished is the synchronization of opinion. Themes would still exist, perhaps more strongly than before, still a left and a right. Notice how the social justice advocates and NRX formed themselves organically. Neither of these groups can be integrated into the mainstream politics today. It's not that they are too extreme, it is that they evolve too quickly to be controlled at the same rate as before (it's like biology, smaller entities evolve faster). The connection between low church and high church is severed.

Gamergate is some evidence for my hypothesis, just in microcosm. We see a smaller community with one narrative crushed by the larger one with a different narrative. The Media does not like competition.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#215
post #17

> Litigation finance is typically a business venture. It doesn’t become charity because a wealthy person uses it as a template for a personal crusade and then insists he’s doing everyone else a favor. Why? Many cases brought by individuals or groups on moral grounds have led the way to better governance. A lot of good work has been done by groups such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation. Why should individuals or g…

> The question should be why you need a billionaire to fund a lawsuit to get some sort of justice.

Exactly. You shouldn't need $10M to sue someone for a grave invasion of privacy.

It's also true that groups such as the EFF are funded in large part by corporations and billionaire foundations (although not exclusively).

However, there is a crucial distinction between the EFF and what Thiel did. The EFF is an issue-driven organization. They issue position statements and operate in public. Their lawsuits are specific to the issues they advocate. The public has the ability to debate these issues and ultimately evolve the law around them. They have that balance of power.

Thiel's objective was simply to run Gawker out of business. He pursued a variety of lawsuits on a diversity of claims that were united only in their goal of censoring a publication. That is not principled philanthropy. Operating in secret and without a principled issue focus, he does not face a balance of power from the public.

If Thiel funded a privacy-advocacy foundation that gave legal aid to victims and engaged in principled public debate, that would be one thing. But that's not what he did here.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#216
post #17

> Litigation finance is typically a business venture. It doesn’t become charity because a wealthy person uses it as a template for a personal crusade and then insists he’s doing everyone else a favor. Why? Many cases brought by individuals or groups on moral grounds have led the way to better governance. A lot of good work has been done by groups such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation. Why should individuals or g…

The subject of the case is a red herring. Typically in these situations, a settlement is reached or insurance covers the damages. That didn't happen. Thiel had an axe to grind against Gawker, invested $10m in the litigation, and pushed the case past settlement offers - even removing a claim that allowed insurance to cover damages. It focused on maximizing the damage to Gawker, which isn't what civil court is typicall…

Precisely. The legal system has certain informal but crucial checks and balances in it. One of them is that the cost and uncertainty of litigation make it in everyone's interest to settle, and in addition insurance creates incentives to settle. A third party purposely removing those incentives distorts the process.

Also to this general point, another check and balance for civil litigation are the reputational and discovery risks. With very few exceptions we require proceedings to be public, meaning that a plaintiff has to be willing to publically stand behind his action, and we allow defendants to have very broad discovery rights, to inspect the books and communications of a plaintiff.

Both of these are disincentives to filing a revenge based lawsuit -- as opposed to an action primarily to recover monetary damages -- and these were perverted as well by having a hidden third party who managed to evade that scrutiny during the proceeding.

There is a reason why vendetta based litigation is not all that common, and formal and informal checks and balances are a big part of it.

As an aside, if I were in Peter Thiel's camp right now I would hope to God he's all paid up with his taxes, doesn't have any angry lovers or ex-employees out there, and isn't engaged in any unethical or embarrassing activities, given that he now almost certainly has a lot of investigative journalism firepower pointed at him.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#217
post #17

> Litigation finance is typically a business venture. It doesn’t become charity because a wealthy person uses it as a template for a personal crusade and then insists he’s doing everyone else a favor. Why? Many cases brought by individuals or groups on moral grounds have led the way to better governance. A lot of good work has been done by groups such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation. Why should individuals or g…

The subject of the case is a red herring. Typically in these situations, a settlement is reached or insurance covers the damages. That didn't happen. Thiel had an axe to grind against Gawker, invested $10m in the litigation, and pushed the case past settlement offers - even removing a claim that allowed insurance to cover damages. It focused on maximizing the damage to Gawker, which isn't what civil court is typicall…

The subject of the case really isn't a red herring.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#218
post #17

> Litigation finance is typically a business venture. It doesn’t become charity because a wealthy person uses it as a template for a personal crusade and then insists he’s doing everyone else a favor. Why? Many cases brought by individuals or groups on moral grounds have led the way to better governance. A lot of good work has been done by groups such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation. Why should individuals or g…

>"Gawker wasn't speaking truth to power and criticizing individuals. Gawker posted an illegally obtained sex-tape. "

Nice deflection! No one cared about the sex tape, they cared about the racist rant contained therein.

Tony did not sue Gawker because of a sex tape (although that was the vector Thiel's lawyers chose), he sued them for exposing a racist rant of his.

To claim that exposing his racist rant isn't criticizing a public individual is quite the massive deflection!!

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#219
Extremely wealthy people are just like any other group of people in that they come in all shapes and sizes.

Here, one very wealthy individual used his money to fund someone else's lawsuit. He did so secretly. He did so against an organization that had harmed him and against which he presumably wanted payback but that also had done a gratuitously damaging and sleazy act as part of a pattern of sleazy acts upon which it had built its erstwhile presumably profitable venture, hence presumably deserving payback.

So what does this say about Silicon Valley? Well, nothing at all, really. Both before and after this incident, Silicon Valley was, is and remains a place where multiple tech entrepreneurs and those who back them financially have built amazing ventures (and fortunes) that have reshaped all of world commerce even while many others failed. The thing that is new and different is the tech and the ways of using it to disrupt old-style business models. What is not different is the people. As with people everywhere, some are great, others sleazy, still others ravenously greedy, still others amazingly kind and gracious - in short, people who come in all shapes and sizes. I guess they are on average more educated and accomplished than average folks but the personal traits that define them, both good and bad, are pretty much the same as with people everywhere.

I don't know Mr. Thiel and don't know any more about him than what the headlines say. He may be fully justified in taking this action (it is a perfectly legal thing to do) or he may be displaying traits deserving our opprobrium. What I am sure of is that his actions here, good or bad, have little or nothing to do with what other prominent tech entrepreneurs do or how they think or how they run their companies.

So the logic of this piece - Mr. Thiel did x as a private act in his life, therefore all Silicon Valley tech billionaires stand indicted, therefore the public will now see them as no different than robber barons - seems to rest on multiple non sequiturs that really need to be more carefully thought through.

I guess we are conditioned to accept this sort of sloppy reasoning when it comes to discussing the very rich but this seems like a way-over-the-top overreaction to an individual episode that is what it is but that reflects very little on the broader environment surrounding it (or, if it does, not in ways that can be generalized in the crazy ways the author does here).

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#220
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's a template for private censorship by the rich. No. Contrary to popular opinion, you can't sue somebody out of existence if they've done nothing wrong. The courts frown on attempts to do that. For you to do something wrong, you had to cause clearly defined harm. If you're causing harm, why shouldn't you be sued out of existence? The injustice here isn't that the rich can eliminate bad actors ... it's that the…

You underestimate the power of being able to turn the Eye of Justice selectively upon individuals or groups of enemies. It's one of the reasons people get so upset with racial or class-based profiling. We may all agree that enforcing speeding laws is a good thing, and someone who gets a ticket for it deserves the fine. But if I could fund the police department to have a car permanently follow just you around and nail…

>I strongly dislike being able to keep paying to throw the justice system against your enemies.

Why? This is simply how the world works.

It doesn't have to be the justice system.

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