Why the World Is Drawing Battle Lines Against American Tech Giants • Hacker News Board

Re: Why the World Is Drawing Battle Lines Against American Tech Giants

#51

Post by yuzi » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 4:04 PM UTC

barisser wrote: post #3

I found this article really frustrating. The US government forces American tech companies to spy on users, so US companies are to blame? These services are so useful and well-liked around the world that they should be considered a threat? The author is amazingly willing to accord French bureaucrats the right to regulate the cultural consumption of Frenchmen. How is this defensible? Should we knock Netflix because it…

> ... so US companies are to blame?

Blame is irrelevant. These countries are choosing to backlash against a product problem.

> ... they should be considered a threat?

Yes. Unless, in the long term, they want to become level-B American citizens. Believe me I know - I'm Canadian and we are close.

> Companies like this don't come out of Europe for a reason.

New tailored products will grow and gain success when the old behemoth products are gone.

Re: Why the World Is Drawing Battle Lines Against American Tech Giants

#52

Post by Bartweiss » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 4:05 PM UTC

barisser wrote: post #3

I found this article really frustrating. The US government forces American tech companies to spy on users, so US companies are to blame? These services are so useful and well-liked around the world that they should be considered a threat? The author is amazingly willing to accord French bureaucrats the right to regulate the cultural consumption of Frenchmen. How is this defensible? Should we knock Netflix because it…

> The US government forces American tech companies to spy on users, so US companies are to blame?

In a case like this, "to blame" is somewhat irrelevant. No matter how unwilling the companies are, US spying is a reason to regulate or avoid them. This isn't a moral judgement (though the article does offer one), but when you can't trust the security of US-produced hardware and software that's a reason to act against US-headquartered companies regardless.

Re: Why the World Is Drawing Battle Lines Against American Tech Giants

#53

Post by hellbanner » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 4:06 PM UTC

criley2 wrote: post #42

dougmany wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>These services are so useful and well-liked around the world that they should be considered a threat? Just because something is well liked, does not mean it is beneficial to society overall. Junk food and facebook come too mind. I love Netflix but part of me feels my life would be better without it too.

Facebook is beneficial to society, it has dramatically changed how people organize and communicate. You can always tell the difference between facebook users and non facebook users now. The non-facebook users don't hang out as much and don't show up to group events as much. "Why wasn't I invited?" "I hit everyone in the FB invites" "Oh I don't have facebook" "You're not using the tool our entire social group uses to…

Have you considered the "non-facebook users" coordinate offline, in-person and can use other technologies like SMS, email, phone calls, IM, chat apps, running into friends at the store, visiting a friend's workplace and "passing the word along" telling friend A who tells friend B?

Re: Why the World Is Drawing Battle Lines Against American Tech Giants

#54

Post by guelo » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 4:07 PM UTC

barisser wrote: post #3

I found this article really frustrating. The US government forces American tech companies to spy on users, so US companies are to blame? These services are so useful and well-liked around the world that they should be considered a threat? The author is amazingly willing to accord French bureaucrats the right to regulate the cultural consumption of Frenchmen. How is this defensible? Should we knock Netflix because it…

> The author is amazingly willing to accord French bureaucrats the right to regulate the cultural consumption of Frenchmen. How is this defensible?

They don't have to defend it to you. You have American values, they have French values. The whole point is that they don't want Americans coming in and imposing their values over theirs.

Re: Why the World Is Drawing Battle Lines Against American Tech Giants

#55

Post by Bartweiss » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 4:10 PM UTC

HillaryBriss wrote: post #30

wonder_er wrote: post #6

I see four parties in play, but the author describes only two: 1. Foreign governments 2. American government 3. American companies ----Not mentioned in the article---- 4. Foreign citizens 5. American citizens Groups 3, 4, and 5 are more-or-less aligned. Groups 1, 2, and 3 have more conflict than anything else. Since American companies are doing an end-run around control, governments are frustrated. I'd never expect o…

Maybe 4 and 5 are not quite so aligned? In democracies, governments should still be viewed as instruments of the voters to a significant extent. Significant quantities of French voters have supported a government that tries to preserve and extend the French language and culture. In some ways, countering the influence of a large American company and the culture it imports can be seen as a legitimate expression of Fren…

On the cultural control issue, I can grant this. On the surveillance issue (US companies are suspect because of US government behaviors), not so much.

American voters may not love Snowden, but they're largely indifferent-to-opposed on mass surveillance. Since the 70s or so they've had essentially no say in the behavior of intelligence and security organizations - all credible candidates have had broadly-similar views, and it's not even a votable topic when what's being done is only known in retrospect.

Re: Why the World Is Drawing Battle Lines Against American Tech Giants

#56

Post by guelo » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 4:11 PM UTC

hodwik wrote: post #18

kelukelugames wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't Osama bin Laden write a declaration about culture invasion from the West?

That's not just a funny coincidence -- the American left has for decades been slowly allying themselves against the West. That's why no one on the left batted an eye when Google chose Yuri Kochiyama for their Google Doodle, despite that she said in 2003: "...I consider Osama bin Laden as one of the people that I admire. To me, he is in the category of Malcolm X, Che Guevara, Patrice Lumumba, Fidel Castro.... I thank…

> American left has for decades been slowly allying themselves against the West.

The US, including both parties, has been shifting rightward for decades, so it makes sense that leftists are feeling alienated.

Re: Why the World Is Drawing Battle Lines Against American Tech Giants

#57

Post by verroq » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 4:12 PM UTC

sievebrain wrote: post #25

di4na wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's look at it the other way. Launching a movie cost a ton of money. So to keep a diverse culture ( we all agreee diversity is great isn't it?) and diverse way to think, you need to help less mainstream way to think. You spend years elaborating complex way to let mainstream exists and makes money, without disturbing it too much, but still keep a working amount of culture disruptor and new ideas growing. And you eve…

So to keep a diverse culture ( we all agreee diversity is great isn't it?) No, we don't all agree. Not when the "diversity" is someone looking at the market and saying "there are too many good movies. we need some shit ones". Nobody needs to diversify away from quality, which is essentially what the French laws do. Don't mistake the bizarre fetishes of a small number of French elite with some kind of natural law or e…

>Not when the "diversity" is someone looking at the market and saying "there are too many good movies

I take it you are against affirmative action?

Re: Why the World Is Drawing Battle Lines Against American Tech Giants

#58

Post by pjc50 » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 4:12 PM UTC

barisser wrote: post #3

I found this article really frustrating. The US government forces American tech companies to spy on users, so US companies are to blame? These services are so useful and well-liked around the world that they should be considered a threat? The author is amazingly willing to accord French bureaucrats the right to regulate the cultural consumption of Frenchmen. How is this defensible? Should we knock Netflix because it…

The article starts by asking you to view things from another perspective. It's not asking you to "knock" Netflix, it's inviting you to consider the point of view of people who do.

American media is subtly hegemonising. All media carries with it the culture of those who produce it, but US media also carries a very strong assumption of "defaultness": that everyone is a (mostly white) American at heart. What effect does this have on the viewer, especially on kids who grow up with a diet American cartoons and action movies? The normalisation of American values in the use of violence to deal with threats and crime. Kids learning US (view of) history instead of their own local history. People learning American alongside their own language, while Americans (and Brits) don't learn another language: that makes the cultural exchange more one-way. Americans don't have to worry about French culture seeping in and erasing American cultural values, notwithstanding the occasional panic about "freedom fries".

If you're not American, you run the risk of becoming an underrepresented minority even in your own country. The problem is even worse for local ethno-linguistic minorities such as Gaelic and Welsh in the UK. Ironically France is only as homogenous as it is due to centuries of centralisation and standardisation deliberately driving out regional linguistic variation.

The popular HN view is probably going to be that minority languages can and should "fail in the market" and die out, leaving only English. Like endangered species. But with every language dies a culture and a literature.

Re: Why the World Is Drawing Battle Lines Against American Tech Giants

#59

Post by AlgorithmicTime » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 4:14 PM UTC

guelo wrote: post #54

barisser wrote: post #3

I found this article really frustrating. The US government forces American tech companies to spy on users, so US companies are to blame? These services are so useful and well-liked around the world that they should be considered a threat? The author is amazingly willing to accord French bureaucrats the right to regulate the cultural consumption of Frenchmen. How is this defensible? Should we knock Netflix because it…

> The author is amazingly willing to accord French bureaucrats the right to regulate the cultural consumption of Frenchmen. How is this defensible? They don't have to defend it to you. You have American values, they have French values. The whole point is that they don't want Americans coming in and imposing their values over theirs.

But... no one's imposing. The people of France are choosing to consume cultural artifacts provided by netflix, et. al.

The French bureaucracy is basically telling the people that "no, we know better than you what you want." Which is absurd.

Re: Why the World Is Drawing Battle Lines Against American Tech Giants

#60

Post by tensor » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 4:14 PM UTC

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #38

verroq wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it not problematic when American tech form an oligopoly on internet services? Especially when these services need to bend to the whims of American government.

If the current crop of tech companies can supersede MS, AOL, Yahoo, MySpace, etc. Why can't companies from other parts of the globe do it as well? It just takes one company to do something different and build inertia. That's all. What is keeping European companies from toppling Google or FB or Twitter? Edit: Keyboard fail.

There are definitely companies from other countries that do well. For example, Skype, Spotify, Shazam, and Soundcloud are all European.