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Amphetamine use in America's workforce

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201–210 of 261 posts

Re: Amphetamine use in America's workforce

#201

The comments in this thread seem to suggest a reasonable subset of people here partake. Is there any reason you feel the need to? I went to a pretty rough college where I had standard 24 hour straight homework sessions once or twice a week. And I used caffeine maybe once a week at most. I work at a startup where the work culture isn't as competitive as what I feel is the norm, but even listening to friends at there d…

But have you tried using amphetamines while working? Perhaps you don't know what you're really capable of. I know people that are fine, happy, productive. But on speed, they are amazed at how much more capable they are. Apart from psychosis or heart issues, why should anyone settle for being less powerful?

For me, dependency and increased expectations. If I have to take drugs to succeed, then I'm stuck taking drugs throughout my career.

The earlier in a career, the worse of a problem this is. Which is why I think doing this as a student to enhance academic performance is a particularly bad idea. You're in school to prove to yourself and others what you're capable of. Doing so with drugs that you're not willing to take for the rest of your life is only lying to yourself.

Re: Amphetamine use in America's workforce

#202
post #9

I think this is a little bit sensationalized at the very least. This excerpt in particular caught me off guard. "Abuse by young professionals is distressingly common—Wall Street traders, software engineers, dentists, nurses, and lawyers, all cracked out of their minds trying to keep up with the competition." Yes, I was diagnosed with ADHD as a child, and yes I have an Adderall prescription. But I'd hardly call myself…

I use Ritalin to treat my ADHD and that was my reaction as well. I have developed a thick skin over the years to the FUD around amphetamines. I can also see how dangerous it could be taking a drug like this without getting the dosage calculated right. Interestingly a pretty prolific mathematician, Paul Erdős used amphetamines [1]. Not sure which one(s) though. I don't think he had a prescription but I think it worked…

Not sure which one(s) though

There's only one "amphetamines". There is a specific molecule (and its enantiomer) called " amphetamine". There are some other amphetamine-class drugs like methamphetamine (crystal meth) and MDMA (ecstasy). Methylphenidate (Ritalin) isn't even an amphetamine-class drug.

Re: Amphetamine use in America's workforce

#203

I think this quote sums up the article's heavy handed, decidedly outdated view on mental health. > ADHD drug abuse had become so commonplace on college campuses that Wesleyan University, among other prominent institutions, has tried to ban it altogether. ADHD is a diagnosed medical disorder that affects millions of people in America. Why do we still stigmatize it in the modern age?

> ADHD is a diagnosed medical disorder that affects millions of people in America.

4.4% of Americans are supposed to have ADHD (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16585449). One starts to wonder if all those people really are suffering from a medical disorder, or if it is just a character trait. I would say a disorder is something which makes it difficult or impossible to function in life. Is that the case for 4.4% of the Americans? How would their ancestors have been surviving for all those thousands of years before Ritalin had been invented?

There are more and more people who have a different view on ADHD: that it has both its bad and its good sides, and that focusing on the good sides of ADHD is the way to deal with it, rather than trying to suppress the symptoms with medicine. See for instance http://www.forbes.com/sites/dalearcher/2014/05/14/adhd-the-e...

Re: Amphetamine use in America's workforce

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use Ritalin to treat my ADHD and that was my reaction as well. I have developed a thick skin over the years to the FUD around amphetamines. I can also see how dangerous it could be taking a drug like this without getting the dosage calculated right. Interestingly a pretty prolific mathematician, Paul Erdős used amphetamines [1]. Not sure which one(s) though. I don't think he had a prescription but I think it worked…

I think the issue with amphetamines is because if taken recreationally the quantities and methods of taking are vastly different. So when I was at school I was on something like 20mg of Ritalin (0.02g) twice a day via a pill that was digested by my stomach. Even that lead to issues with diet and sleep and anxiety. Whereas if we're at a rave we'll happily share 1g+ (say between 2 of us which is 12x the amount) of amph…

People using amphetamine off-prescription at work will be taking it like ADHD medication, not like at a party.

Re: Amphetamine use in America's workforce

#205

So glad that as I was growing up, my ADHD tendencies were seen more as just an individual issue I'd have to learn to control myself rather than a physiological condition in need of medication. Granted, in my street-wise years I've found stimulants and I get along really, really well, but there's a nagging feeling that I simply don't want to be on amphetamines daily. It might turn my writing into delusional drivel lik…

Rand, eh? I would've name-dropped Philip K. Dick, noted speed addict for decades, and whose delusional drivel is actually really, really great science fiction.

Re: Amphetamine use in America's workforce

#206
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do they act differently?

For people with ADHD, amphetamines basically erases the symptoms of ADHD and decreases hyperactivity, so it doesn't really act like an upper at all (although it does still increase alertness).

Why on earth was this down voted?

ADHD is caused by a low dopamine level or uptake. This can lead to concentration problems and impulsive behavior, and those symptoms can make people look restless and overactive. Amphetamine stimulates dopamine production, and that cancels out the effect of ADHD. If given in a low enough dosis to someone with ADHD, it takes the restlessness away, so it has the effect of a downer instead of an upper.

Re: Amphetamine use in America's workforce

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be interested in reading the rest of the sentence you're quoting: > Regardless of your neurological makeup, just the stress on your heart seems insane

Your neurological makeup might determine what effect some drugs have on your heart rate?

No. It doesn't.

He said, whatever your neurological makeup might be, Adderall is going to be unhealthy on your heart.

Adderall works primarily by switching your norepinephrine and dopamine in the brain, in all brains. From Wikipedia, norepinephrine:

"The general function of norepinephrine is to mobilize the brain and body for action. Norepinephrine release is lowest during sleep, rises during wakefulness, and reaches much higher levels during situations of stress or danger, in the so-called fight-or-flight response. In the brain, norepinephrine increases arousal and alertness, promotes vigilance, enhances formation and retrieval of memory, and focuses attention; it also increases restlessness and anxiety. In the rest of the body, norepinephrine increases heart rate and blood pressure, triggers the release of glucose from energy stores, increases blood flow to skeletal muscle, reduces blood flow to the gastrointestinal system, and inhibits voiding of the bladder and gastrointestinal motility."

Anecdotally my doctors switched me from Adderall to Armodafinil for this explicit reason. My blood pressure was pre hypertensive after taking Adderall for only a short time.

Re: Amphetamine use in America's workforce

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the authoritarian state uses an in-language to signal virtue, overstepping denotations. These are the same people who call non-cops "civilians."

My favorite is when they have the nerve to call vets "civilians".

I'm not sure my cat would appreciate having his annual check-up and booster with a non-civilian vet.

Re: Amphetamine use in America's workforce

#209
post #9

I think this is a little bit sensationalized at the very least. This excerpt in particular caught me off guard. "Abuse by young professionals is distressingly common—Wall Street traders, software engineers, dentists, nurses, and lawyers, all cracked out of their minds trying to keep up with the competition." Yes, I was diagnosed with ADHD as a child, and yes I have an Adderall prescription. But I'd hardly call myself…

As someone who has taken various recreational and over the counter drugs I question that sentiment. Having a prescription doesn't make adderall magically different. To me it's very much like speed or cocaine, just longer lasting and more consistent with less of a let down. 1) any child who takes it certainly has an advantage 2) I couldn't fathom taking something that strong every single day for months on end (if not…

I can speak to the long-term effects of two people taking adderall/ritalin.

I started taking them about 14 years ago, when I was in early 30s. Being raised by my great depression era grandparents, I was extremely anti-medication. In general, I still am, for myself. It's not right to impose that view on others. You'll see why in a couple of paragraphs.

I've been technically focused, on a daily basis, since I was a kid, starting in the late 1970s, and that translated into a very successful career, even before I started taking the meds.

But I definitely have ADHD, and I always have.

What does that mean specifically, in my case? It means that it takes an enormous amount of energy to focus. Indeed, in the decade I was getting paid before taking the meds, I created many things, big, small, alone, in groups, terrible and awesome, in a variety of environments and backgrounds.

But after a long day of work, where I'd used all of my mental energy to focus, I would end up having to take an hour nap. Note, I wasn't sleep deprived. Via my grandparents, I've always valued getting enough sleep.

But the mental drain was enormous, doing software/technology for 8 or so hours every day.

My new wife at the time, who has a mental health background, suggested I get evaluated for ADHD. I resisted for a long time, but finally I did and brought home some adderall.

Me being me, I wanted to approach this very carefully and rigorously.

Despite a good diet, plenty of sleep and exercise, my pulse rate was always a bit high, as was my blood pressure. Subclinical, but notably elevated.

Something interesting happened after I took adderall the first time: my BP and pulse rate were lower. And please note that this has been clinically noted and recorded on my medical record over the years as I've gotten my vitals checked from time to time. The meta-data before each check was when I last took the med.

When I take adderall, concentrating isn't a struggle, it just happens when I want it to. This has the effect of lowering my vitals, even though adderall is, as stated elsewhere, a very smooth version of speed.

Over the years, I've alternated between adderall and ritalin at first and now concerta, which is, of course, 'ritalin extended release'.

I don't take the meds every day, and I've had the two prescribing doctors over the years give me high dosing flexibility. In other words, lots of small dosage tablets, giving me the ability to dose as I see fit.

Here are my general rules for dosing, in order of precedence: 1. work days 2. dose strongly biased toward the AM 3. lower or zero dose on work days where I need to be 'scattered' and do a lot of shallow things 4. rarely non-work days, usually with a lesser dose, where I need to do some deeper focus

I feel absolutely no 'pull' from these meds. I have gone months not taking them, and they have improved my life notably. They are a tool, and I use them as such.

The other person is my son. I must be briefer here because my day must begin shortly.

He is now a teenager, and started showing signs of clinical autism before his 2nd birthday. Further, he is even more ADHD than I am.

We were told he would never speak. Further, we resisted giving him any meds, for years. This was a mistake.

We finally started him on Concerta when he was six years old. The difference is profound.

ADHD and autism together in a single mind is quite a curious combination.

Briefly: without the meds, his mind races in so many directions, in so many deep 'autistic rabbit holes', that he can hardly string together a clear sentence, even today. Only after he started taking the meds was he able to start learning in a relatively normal way.

He is effectively dependent on the meds to function in a relatively normal way. And, with his mom's amazing, devoted and miraculous effort and attention these past 14 years, he is at mainstream class levels (but one year behind) in every subject except math.

ramblerman, I am the one who has rambled this morning (my time). I am well known for creating walls of text, so please accept my apology for that.

As you say, adderall isn't magically different. It is in fact speed.

But our brains and bodies are amazing, and amazingly variant.

I suspect that most of the people who take adderall and concerta don't need it as my son needs it. And perhaps we need more rigorous clinical protocols, but who knows. It's all pretty complicated.

PS: I have to leave this message unedited, so please pardon the roughness of it. I have to get ready for work, and the train waits on nobody.

Re: Amphetamine use in America's workforce

#210
This attitude, painting cognitive enhancers with a broad and critical brush, is not helping things. Cognitive enhancers have the ability to improve persona lives and and society on the whole. But, there is a double standard with all things in healthcare. If you want to fix something, then by all means, take as many pills as you want and don't worry about changing lifestyle choices. Take insulin, for example. Or blood pressure medicine. Society may be harsh on folks that need these medicines, but these folks will have no problem getting the medicine. But, if we want to be better than "fixed", if we want to improve our cognitive performance, to do that in a safe physician guided manner, and have that translate to a better emotional, psychological, and economic future for themselves and their family. The economic benefits are real and shouldn't be limited to those in higher socioeconomic strata.

This article shows sleep deprived surgeons benefit from modafinil: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21997802

Modafinil Does Not Serve as a Reinforcer in Cocaine: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2842996/

... Ok, I won't make it one of those posts. But, do some research. We will all be better off if we can drop the FUD rhetoric and treat cognitive enhancers like we treat other drugs, something that can help and hurt. And we need to stop thinking of health care as something we do when something is broken, and start thinking about it as another tool in the toolbox that we can use to improve our lives.

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