Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese • Hacker News Board

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#171

Post by humanrebar » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 4:10 PM UTC

xemdetia wrote: post #169

rebeccaskinner wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in a lot of places churches have served as a defactor "third place" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place ) for communities. It seems like the decline in church attendance mirrors the decline in a lot of third place spaces. None of my grandparents ever attended church with any regularity, but I know that they were all involved in various social and community activities with the types of clubs that don't…

I feel the biggest hole in technical/small social groups vs. church groups is the lack of permanency. With most church organizations there is a built in way to bring fresh people in to associate with the church, and a dedicated place to meet that you can expect to be there with modest assumptions 10 years from now. A technical group is generally completely nomadic, they have to do a lot of work to bring people togeth…

> I feel the biggest hole in technical/small social groups vs. church groups is the lack of permanency.

You mean other than the focus on God and morality?

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#172

Post by Raphmedia » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 4:12 PM UTC

TheLilHipster wrote: post #103

I've been working corporate IT for 4 years now. I'm quite attractive and analytically intelligent, but lack social and emotional intelligence (always been a loner due to childhood circumstances). I feel alienated, I can't relate to others in this rat race. The constant dick waving and competition driven by social media, it's just such a turnoff. Without motivation or passion for games like I used to, life feels empty…

> but lack social and emotional intelligence

Read books on the subject! I am the same as you. Very logical but not emotional at all and I struggle with empathy.

I recently started reading some of Daniel Goleman's books and learning about emotions in a logical way opened my mind to new ways to think.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#173

Post by cableshaft » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 4:29 PM UTC

VLM wrote: post #131

ryandrake wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can agree with your last statement. Unfortunately, due to liability and insurance reasons, "generic venues for doing stuff" are pretty expensive and unavailable. I help organize a local group of game players and by far finding an inexpensive (by this I mean under $120/day) venue willing to unlock their doors for 50-60 people on a weekend is one of our biggest ongoing challenges. There are lots of businesses that do…

My advice is you're seeing competition for business meetings. Yes the executive conference center in the woods costs $800/dy because board meetings are willing to pay $800 but not $801. Thats why in the city there's nothing to do but drink, and if you don't drink there's nothing to do at all. In the burbs there is an entire division of the govt called "parks and rec" or whatever and I live far from the coasts in an a…

There's a huge parks scene out here in the suburbs (tons of Forest Preserves), but I don't think there's too many pavilions around (unless you count picnic shelters, and I called about those, and it's $50+ to reserve those, months in advance).

Only pavilion I'm aware of is at the local arboretum, and it's $12 a person just to get inside there.

I will look into it, though. I also tried to get rooms at one of the local libraries, but they kept saying their rooms could only handle about 25 people. Last meet and greet we had, 45 people showed up (it was at a local coffee shop that has since gone out of business).

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#174

Post by khedoros » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 4:49 PM UTC

bargl wrote: post #115

rebeccaskinner wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in a lot of places churches have served as a defactor "third place" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place ) for communities. It seems like the decline in church attendance mirrors the decline in a lot of third place spaces. None of my grandparents ever attended church with any regularity, but I know that they were all involved in various social and community activities with the types of clubs that don't…

As an Ex-Christian, I miss the "third place" but I do not miss the church. I don't know where to get that same idea for my kids but I also don't want them growing up with a belief in the doctrine I grew up with. I also have strong feelings about what religions my child is exposed to. I don't mind him being exposed to multiple religions, but there are certain religions I would consider secondary and don't want to be h…

I have some co-workers who attend a kind of spiritual-social group. It's designed as a kind of third place for those who choose to avoid the Christian tradition.

I haven't been, so maybe I'm wrong about there being any kind of spiritual focus to the group, but I might describe my coworkers as an ex-Christian (who's fairly bitter about it) and...well, the other guy, I'm not sure. Maybe "theist"? My impression was that they're an open-minded and diverse group of people. Maybe you can find something similar in your area.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#175

Post by FilterSweep » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 4:59 PM UTC

VLM wrote: post #116

supergreg wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mean one does not need romantic love to have a relationship or one does not need a relationship at all? The former seems like an archaic idea (arranged marriages for example) while the later I've seen very questioned by society, mostly by older people.

HN is a young people echo chamber, yet not entirely, and I can assure you from personal experience and observation of peers that a successful twenty year marriage involves remarkably little romance, although keeping a little going is nice. I think there's a lot of young people with soon to be broken expectations who think that marriage means every night is romantic date night. Most life is muddling thru.

From a young person's perspective who has seen older coworkers get divorced and observing remarkable fallout from divorce, why get married then? Please don't take the question as an insult, its a query from a young developer who scarcely has relationships longer than a year.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#176

Post by yuzi » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 5:12 PM UTC

brightball wrote: post #35

A big part of this that's unpopular to discuss in current culture is people actively avoiding going to a church. Whether you actually donate and believe everything that is said isn't really a factor in whether or not you can show up every week, meet other people in your community, participate in events, be there for each other at during the hard times in life, have fun activities for your kids where you can meet othe…

People who "actively" avoid churches often do so for reasons other than their personal life challenges.

Also, you're painting a picture as though you can come for the other benefits and not have to deal with their primary purpose of existence; kinda like a time-share salesman who offers $500 and a free lunch provided you listen to the 3 hour brainwashing session. It's a disingenuous statement. I know this from being sold the same free lunch - many times :)

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#177

Post by further_tech » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 5:17 PM UTC

baron816 wrote: post #154

further_tech wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well... that's an extremely arrogant question. Can a startup change the core of human nature? Can it change thousands of years of Philosophy? Can it change our socio-economic background? Can it change history? If you can, then... dear Lord... this is Apotheosis.

You don't need to change human nature. Not at all. You just need to figure out why organizations like schools, clubs, fraternities, churches, sports teams, etc. are so good at helping people make lasting, meaningful connections and replicate that formula at scale. That's certainly what I'm trying to do with Krewe, but I think there are many other ways to approach it. People have been forming close-knit communities fo…

>replicate that formula at scale

This doesn't help anyone; it only makes them feel worse. You will only make people have even more superficial relationships - the last thing a depressed alienated individual needs.

Empathetic bonds do not have a "template" - it is based in the individuality of each person in a group. There is not a single statistical model at scale that is able to predict what can take you out of isolation and alienation.

> I think giving people a way to meet over and over again that's both comfortable and convenient is what is needed.

Just confirms what I argued. They crave real emotional bonds, not an easy "fast-food way" to talk to strangers. Long-term relationships are complicated, deep and time-consuming.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#178

Post by qihqi » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 5:20 PM UTC

seren wrote: post #73

eva1984 wrote: post #3

Why US is different from all the other countries in the charts? If author's hypothesis is right, that it is mainly about declining of economic status, I cannot see why other western countries would not follow a similar pattern. And from the chart, US's (whites) death rates takes off starting from late 90s, where the economy was doing great, while other countries' death rates keep declining even during great recession…

I believe people in the US are more mobile, so you can end up living in area where you are 1000 kilometers away from your children or family. In Europe, people are generally less mobile (geographically) and countries are smaller, so you can still work in the city and still live in the vicinity of your elderly parents (let's say one-two hour drive). Maybe less obvious, but people in Europe also tend to have more vacat…

Not to mention that the definition of "family" is distinct too. If you ask an American, do you have family in this city, it is same as asking are you married/have kids. While people of other culture might answer, "yeah my mom is here".

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#179

Post by qihqi » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 5:20 PM UTC

seren wrote: post #73

eva1984 wrote: post #3

Why US is different from all the other countries in the charts? If author's hypothesis is right, that it is mainly about declining of economic status, I cannot see why other western countries would not follow a similar pattern. And from the chart, US's (whites) death rates takes off starting from late 90s, where the economy was doing great, while other countries' death rates keep declining even during great recession…

I believe people in the US are more mobile, so you can end up living in area where you are 1000 kilometers away from your children or family. In Europe, people are generally less mobile (geographically) and countries are smaller, so you can still work in the city and still live in the vicinity of your elderly parents (let's say one-two hour drive). Maybe less obvious, but people in Europe also tend to have more vacat…

Not to mention that the definition of "family" is distinct too. If you ask an American, do you have family in this city, it is same as asking are you married/have kids. While people of other culture might answer, "yeah my mom is here".

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#180

Post by jokermatt999 » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 5:21 PM UTC

meric wrote: post #67

coldpie wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've thought about this a lot, and I agree with you. I'm a pretty devout Atheist (is that the right term?), but I do recognize the social role that churches play and I wish there was some similar secular organization that could fill that role. Or course there are hobby and special interest groups, but I can't think of just a general gathering where everyone is a regular and friendly like my church was growing up.

Religion consists of a set of superstitious beliefs and a set of philosophical beliefs. When setting aside the superstitious part be careful not to lose sight of the philosophical part that makes sense. I think the reason a church provides social cohesion and belonging is because it is literally a group of people trying to become the best human beings they can be, a process that involves feeling their own and being a…

Like how atheists complain about fundamentalists, religious folks tend to be more annoyed by the loud atheists. There are plenty of us out there who may even believe in strict materialism, but are graceful enough to not disparage others beliefs when they share them. It's a shame you've met more of the former than the latter.