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Moving Forward on Basic Income

blog.ycombinator.com

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Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#941

Post by ZenoArrow »

Sacho wrote: post #914
ZenoArrow wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Won't inflation, as well as increased demand for the things people need just raise prices of those things out of reach of those on the floor negating any benefit?" Ideally you'd want UBI to increase with inflation. However, as the initial study is over 5 years the decrease in purchasing power by the end of the study is likely to be minimal. There is a risk that companies that service low-income people will increas…

> The only guard I know of for this is strong competition and disciplined consumers, people have to be willing to express their dislike of price hikes by shopping elsewhere otherwise the system won't work. Why would you need BI if that existed in the first place? Then people would have the discipline to not work shitty jobs and strong competition would provide them the work they want! What has BI solved, then?

> "Why would you need BI if that existed in the first place? Then people would have the discipline to not work shitty jobs and strong competition would provide them the work they want! What has BI solved, then?"

The desire to eat trumps the desire for a better job. If you tie people's choices to their need to survive, you are going to interfere with what people would choose that serves their best interests. Amongst other things, UBI tackles this issue.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#942

Post by blastrat »

Hey EVERYBODY, this topic is all what actual economists, you know literal big E Economists, study; so, while actual economists can disagree about this topic, they disagree from a basis of understanding some things.

People who have not studied economics--for which the prerequisite is calculus and also statistics so if you haven't taken those, you haven't taken economics--...people who have not studied economics, micro and macro, should read about this topic with avid interest, but don't debate it, you just have no idea what you are talking about.

Not trying to be a jerk, just trying to say, this discussion is like reading a debate of computer programming by non programmers speculating from the point of view how they imagine it might work, like the 5 blind men and the elephant...

The basic laws of economics have not been overturned. People respond to incentives; there is no free lunch; dead weight losses; transfer payments; too many dollars chasing too few goods; growth in money supply; water seeks its own level, tides, all boats; labor theory of value; national income accounting; trickle down, it's really a thing... I could go on, but what is the point.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#943

Post by ConfuciusSay02 »

daemonk wrote: post #227

So is this basically "pure" communism? I guess historically, countries we called communistic didn't really adhere to its central idea; or they couldn't do so practically due to the accompanied political/economic instability following regime change.

No, it's nothing at all like "pure" communism.

It seems like the political discource in the US has led to the loss of all meaning behind terms like communism.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#944

Post by ConfuciusSay02 »

saiya-jin wrote: post #900

if whole world would work on this BI, you would buy a coffee or two for it, nothing more. every single item we purchase and consume every day would be massively more expensive. there is a reason why all the stuff is made in china. or you want BI just for yourself, your circle or your country? once, in star-trekish future, this might be the best choice. in current world, it just doesn't make sense apart from nice inte…

What evidence do you have to support your assertion? Plenty of products are made and manufactured in the US and are not prohibitively expensive.

Why can't we work on multiple problems at the same time? Nobody is suggesting we abandon other issues to work solely in BI...

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#945

Post by aaroninsf »

pithic wrote: post #861
lewisl9029 wrote: post #804

The most compelling case I've seen made recently for basic income is from Yanis Varoufakis (the infamous Greek finance minister who resigned after refusing to agree to the terms of the bailout that the Greek people voted against in a referendum): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvgdtF3y0Ss There were many gems in that talk, but this one stood out to me in particular: "The right to turn down a job is essential for a w…

>The Mafia loves to give us options that we can't refuse, to make us offers we can't refuse. Send us a fat portion of your workers' pay to fund our Utopian vision. Or else.

I'm not after workers' pay.

I'm after your 'package' and your contractually guaranteed returns and your windfalls.

I'm going to reverse a 55 year trend of ever more wealth going to a limited number of people.

I'm going to crack off as much of that as I can and redefine how we play this game for the next round.

Defining this as 'taking money from your employees' is akin IMO to claiming you're replacing unskilled labor in your fast food chain with a robot because the minimum wage went up.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#946

Post by pithic »

DonaldFisk wrote: post #867
pithic wrote: post #861

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The Mafia loves to give us options that we can't refuse, to make us offers we can't refuse. Send us a fat portion of your workers' pay to fund our Utopian vision. Or else.

It doesn't have to come from income tax. It could come from unearned sources of income, such as a tax on land, or on interest.

Or it could fall from the sky, or grow on trees...

I agree with one point: UBI will provide freedom -- the freedom of some fraction of society to live at a very low standard at the expense of the remainder.

Sure, a high-income family, burdened by UBI taxes and other monstrosities, could decide to leave their jobs, leave their home, schools, neighborhood, and live in a UBI ghetto. To pursue art...

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#947

Post by godspiral »

ncallaway wrote: post #321
acgourley wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll find there are two voices for BI, the liberal and the liberatian. The liberal would prefer to keep universal healthcare and food programs and put cash on top, making the total distribution to the poor larger. The liberatian would prefer to simply move the complex paternalistic safety net into a simpler cash payment which doesn't disincentivize work while not increasing it's size. As an aside, if you pay attent…

The thing I'd like to see is government services that will optionally replace portions of your Basic Income. If you're having problems feeding yourself, I would like to see an opt-in program where you can receive food, in exchange for $X out of your BI. If you're having problems housing yourself, an opt-in program for housing in exchange for $Y out of your BI. The same options should be available for all the necessit…

UBI does have the advantage of making every single government program funded equally by everyone. An alternative to any government cost is a higher dividend cheque to all.

To use your idea though, you could join a voluntary mutualized/cooperative consumer union that buys food in bulk discounts to distribute to members, or pools 5-20 peoples UBI to buy a very large house.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#948

Post by paulddraper »

geon wrote: post #870
pithic wrote: post #861

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The Mafia loves to give us options that we can't refuse, to make us offers we can't refuse. Send us a fat portion of your workers' pay to fund our Utopian vision. Or else.

But paying your taxes isn't presented as an option .

Exactly.

You are replacing a decision with (according to the quote) limited flexibility, with a choice with no flexibility.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#949

Post by talmand »

aaroninsf wrote: post #945
pithic wrote: post #861

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The Mafia loves to give us options that we can't refuse, to make us offers we can't refuse. Send us a fat portion of your workers' pay to fund our Utopian vision. Or else.

I'm not after workers' pay. I'm after your 'package' and your contractually guaranteed returns and your windfalls. I'm going to reverse a 55 year trend of ever more wealth going to a limited number of people. I'm going to crack off as much of that as I can and redefine how we play this game for the next round. Defining this as 'taking money from your employees' is akin IMO to claiming you're replacing unskilled labor…

So, when someone with knowledge of the fast food industry directly states that robots will be implemented if the minimum wage goes up is somehow misinformed?

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#950

Post by paulddraper »

wyager wrote: post #886
lewisl9029 wrote: post #804

The most compelling case I've seen made recently for basic income is from Yanis Varoufakis (the infamous Greek finance minister who resigned after refusing to agree to the terms of the bailout that the Greek people voted against in a referendum): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvgdtF3y0Ss There were many gems in that talk, but this one stood out to me in particular: "The right to turn down a job is essential for a w…

What a foolish analogy. The Mafia uses violence to force people to "agree" to things. If one "can't say no" to a contract because their pre-contract situation sucks and will be improved by adopting the contract, they have suffered no violence.

It's foolish, but that's not even the biggest reason.

It's foolish because he wants to replace one corrupt group of people that take your money and distribute it (the Mafia) with another corrupt group of people that take your money and distribute it (the government).

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