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Moving Forward on Basic Income

blog.ycombinator.com

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Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#861

Post by pithic »

lewisl9029 wrote: post #804

The most compelling case I've seen made recently for basic income is from Yanis Varoufakis (the infamous Greek finance minister who resigned after refusing to agree to the terms of the bailout that the Greek people voted against in a referendum): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvgdtF3y0Ss There were many gems in that talk, but this one stood out to me in particular: "The right to turn down a job is essential for a w…

>The Mafia loves to give us options that we can't refuse, to make us offers we can't refuse.

Send us a fat portion of your workers' pay to fund our Utopian vision. Or else.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#862

Post by lmm »

jeffdavis wrote: post #847
lewisl9029 wrote: post #804

The most compelling case I've seen made recently for basic income is from Yanis Varoufakis (the infamous Greek finance minister who resigned after refusing to agree to the terms of the bailout that the Greek people voted against in a referendum): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvgdtF3y0Ss There were many gems in that talk, but this one stood out to me in particular: "The right to turn down a job is essential for a w…

Let's say you have a person living in a remote area and they don't interact much with other people and they don't have a basic income. Are they free? Let's say someone lives in the city without BI, is it fair to say that moving into the wilderness is an option for them, and therefore they are free? Does it change if they started in the wilderness?

Note that there is (virtually) no terra nullis any more, and likely not enough wilderness to accommodate today's world population living the kind of lifestyle one can live on without interacting with other people.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#863

Post by loceng »

PabloOsinaga wrote: post #9

I wonder how to test controlling for reciprocity. I.e., If I receive a basic income as part of a pilot/experiment I will feel tempted to "give back" somehow, while if basic income is a baseline all humans receive, that reciprocity will not be present. How can you design an experiment so that somehow people don't feel they are receiving money in an extraordinary way, but rather that's just part of how the world works.…

I am not sure that is possible in an experiment. You can however eventually (or even now within society) create systems that lead to people becoming better humans, more compassionate; education and social interaction opportunities would be the main ones that come to mind. Basic Income is a better foundation to start from anyhow.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#864

Post by lmm »

JorgeGT wrote: post #386
socalnate1 wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best answer that I've heard to this question (when I asked it on HN a year or two ago) is that you give people their money on a weekly basis. If they blow it and have no money for food, well they are going to get another check in a week. This doesn't totally solve the problem of course, but makes the "I blew all my money on a new car and now I can't eat" issue much more manageable.

"Hey, I will lend you money for that new car if you give me X% of your weekly checks for Y amount of time".

You can still declare bankruptcy if that becomes onerous.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#865

Post by abalone »

brbsix wrote: post #796
abalone wrote: post #665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same could be said for startups!

Only startups actually have to raise their capital in an entirely voluntary manner, with all the due diligence and stipulations that entails. Government just takes it. It's the difference between your wife shopping for groceries with your credit card and an armed gunman sticking you up the ATM telling you to comply or die.

Where are all these people buried who have been shot for not paying their taxes?

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#866

Post by lmm »

chimeracoder wrote: post #628
naasking wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good thing everyone will not have more money then. The total money supply remains constant under UBI.

> The total money supply remains constant under UBI. Well - it doesn't, actually. A self-sufficient program would have to be self-sustaining via tax revenue, and unless the goal is to defeat the whole purpose of the program, the tax revenue will disproportionately come from the wealthy. However, the wealthy are less likely to spend every extra dollar that they have, which means that they're more likely instead to sav…

Depends what measure of money supply you're using. Under some measures the same "quantity" of money at higher velocity counts as higher money supply (which arguably better reflects the effect on the real economy). Under other measures money created under fractional reserve doesn't count.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#867

Post by DonaldFisk »

pithic wrote: post #861
lewisl9029 wrote: post #804

The most compelling case I've seen made recently for basic income is from Yanis Varoufakis (the infamous Greek finance minister who resigned after refusing to agree to the terms of the bailout that the Greek people voted against in a referendum): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvgdtF3y0Ss There were many gems in that talk, but this one stood out to me in particular: "The right to turn down a job is essential for a w…

>The Mafia loves to give us options that we can't refuse, to make us offers we can't refuse. Send us a fat portion of your workers' pay to fund our Utopian vision. Or else.

It doesn't have to come from income tax. It could come from unearned sources of income, such as a tax on land, or on interest.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#868

Post by jmngomes »

DonaldFisk wrote: post #867
pithic wrote: post #861

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The Mafia loves to give us options that we can't refuse, to make us offers we can't refuse. Send us a fat portion of your workers' pay to fund our Utopian vision. Or else.

It doesn't have to come from income tax. It could come from unearned sources of income, such as a tax on land, or on interest.

Or by reducing the financial excess/waste that goes to corruption, tax avoidance or rent-seeking companies (many of who oppose the very idea of a basic income).

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#869

Post by imarg »

hellodevnull wrote: post #860
InclinedPlane wrote: post #807

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic income has a whole host of pretty interesting self-reinforcing feedback loops that seemingly would improve things overall. For example, people would be more likely to leave jobs that were unsafe, treated people poorly, etc. Including situations where employers weren't following labor laws and regulations (which is a huge problem today). Meaning that maybe it'd be more likely that the fire code, sanitary regulat…

Same logic is used in free market arguments: Workers leaving jobs to go to other companies creates an incentive for employers to improve work environments. In both scenarios the workplaces become better off, but what really happens in practice is less than ideal.

Yes but what happens if you are poor and living paycheck to paycheck? And what if there are not enough jobs? You have no choice but to stay in a job no matter how bad it is.

BI supposedly will give you a choice. You won't starve to death if you leave your job.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#870

Post by geon »

pithic wrote: post #861
lewisl9029 wrote: post #804

The most compelling case I've seen made recently for basic income is from Yanis Varoufakis (the infamous Greek finance minister who resigned after refusing to agree to the terms of the bailout that the Greek people voted against in a referendum): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvgdtF3y0Ss There were many gems in that talk, but this one stood out to me in particular: "The right to turn down a job is essential for a w…

>The Mafia loves to give us options that we can't refuse, to make us offers we can't refuse. Send us a fat portion of your workers' pay to fund our Utopian vision. Or else.

But paying your taxes isn't presented as an option.
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