Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese • Hacker News Board

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#131

Post by VLM » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 2:34 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #114

cableshaft wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just a community space with rooms that people can set things up in. Libraries kind of fill that role today, but you have to reserve the rooms sometimes a year in advance. I mean more a place where you go, say 'this empty room is going to be used to play games for the next two hours' or 'we're going to set up some punch and cookies here for people to socialize for an hour' or whatever, and you're good. Maybe be abl…

I can agree with your last statement. Unfortunately, due to liability and insurance reasons, "generic venues for doing stuff" are pretty expensive and unavailable. I help organize a local group of game players and by far finding an inexpensive (by this I mean under $120/day) venue willing to unlock their doors for 50-60 people on a weekend is one of our biggest ongoing challenges. There are lots of businesses that do…

My advice is you're seeing competition for business meetings. Yes the executive conference center in the woods costs $800/dy because board meetings are willing to pay $800 but not $801. Thats why in the city there's nothing to do but drink, and if you don't drink there's nothing to do at all.

In the burbs there is an entire division of the govt called "parks and rec" or whatever and I live far from the coasts in an area with a hyperactive parks and rec dept. All you need do is convince one parks and rec functionary that you should run game night and you've got your choice of parks and rec owned rooms for free. If you can't convince them, then you get to pay rent which is of the $100 class you mention and the city self insures.

There are issues, like no dogs or alcohol in the parks and park facilities. And there are first come first serve issues, you are not getting the pavilion on monday nights because thats projection screen movie night, tuesday nights because thats free cover band night, thursdays are free community orchestra concerts, and every friday night the streets are blocked off for a block party. Aside from festivals and holiday events. Of course that's just one busy park, but wednesday nights are open right now.

With respect to "things to do" the problem is defining things to do. If thats defined as drink until 2am and throw up in the street and take some beer googled person home, thats fun but its city only and nothing to do in the burbs. If you want to play a different intermural parks and rec sport every night with the general public in organized games, or have what boils down to club meetings or block/street parties or park concerts or festivals for the heck of it, there's nothing like that to do in the city because corporate has priced the recreation out, yet the burbs are incredibly active, because the burbs are where sober people go for fun. Recreational tree climbing, Adult tae Kwon Do, Learn to Kayak, every sport imaginable...

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#132

Post by klagermkii » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 2:35 PM UTC

twoquestions wrote: post #48

brightball wrote: post #35

A big part of this that's unpopular to discuss in current culture is people actively avoiding going to a church. Whether you actually donate and believe everything that is said isn't really a factor in whether or not you can show up every week, meet other people in your community, participate in events, be there for each other at during the hard times in life, have fun activities for your kids where you can meet othe…

The problem with church is that it demands submission in exchange for community. Not only believe this way, but dress this way, eat this way, vote this way, and if you're in any way different you're as cut off as you would be if you stayed home, and if you're having hard times you must have done something to deserve it. I'm from Ohio so it may be different up here, but that's my experience.

I don't think that that is a trait derived or unique to Christianity. I think that happens in all groups be they religious or secular, where people find that they can make a majority of the group happy by instituting common standards of behaviour. It can start with something like a Code of Conduct with good rules like "clothes mandatory", but people don't know when to stop, and 2000 years later you end up with modern church rules.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#133

Post by MagnumOpus » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 2:38 PM UTC

gkanai wrote: post #37

simonbarker87 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, very interesting. I wasn't born until '87 so all I've ever known is Japan as it is now rather than growing in the way China has been.

Growth is next to zero in many first world economies. Most of Europe is basically not growing. Only Germany is. Many economies in Latin America are doing poorly, especially Brasil, Argentina- Venezuela is in free-fall. There is growth in Africa (from a much lower starting point), but it is uneven. There is a little growth in parts of South East Asia (Indonesia is doing ok, as is the Philippines, and Vietnam not bad)…

> Growth is next to zero in many first world economies. Most of Europe is basically not growing. Only Germany is. Many economies in Latin America are doing poorly

Look beyond the 3-year or even 10-year perspective. All of Europe and most of Latin America is doing visibly better than 25 years ago in terms of infrastructure, life expectancy, disposable income etc. Even after three years of a massive economic crisis, Brazil is a better place to live than in 1990.

While Japan is the same - just older.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#134

Post by jazzyk » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 2:38 PM UTC

lgieron wrote: post #23

greydius wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These companies became household names during a period of incredible economic growth in Japan (60s - 80's). But economic growth at that level is not sustainable (as China is finding out), and the country went into a recession in the 90's. Japan is still one of the wealthiest and most productive nations in the world, but the borrowing to fuel its growth has caught up, and it now has one of the largest debt-to-gdp rati…

> but the borrowing to fuel its growth has caught up, From what I've read, the Japanese public debt is mostly domestic, so it wasn't actually foreign money that was fueling the growth.

Yes, it is domestic (retirement savings) - but it is still debt and will need to be repaid. Due to Japan's demographics, pretty soon.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#135

Post by return0 » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 2:38 PM UTC

further_tech wrote: post #65

Your argument is dominated by pragmatism, which often obfuscates what religion is all about. Great communities are a consequence of the chosen lifestyle and morality of religious people. You could gather just as many atheists and the response wouldn't be the same. EDIT: I'm not saying an atheist community would be WORSE than Christianity. I'm saying it would be DIFFERENT from the Christian one.

You are spot on about this , although i can see how your comment may be misinterpreted. The church is a pleasant place because people share similar morals. Atheists may have great morals, but there is little overlap. That is true for any secular group really. Setting up an adversarial type of gathering , from sports to politics will not be the same experience as the one that a church offers.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#136

Post by Verdex » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 2:40 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #51

Morgawr wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As somebody who's had a dear internet friend die, let me tell you that yes, we'd miss you if you're gone! I was (and still am) part of a tight community of people on IRC and one day we realized a guy in our group hadn't said anything for almost a month. He'd always been the quiet type of person who sometimes would go for a few days or even a week without saying anything, but it was really weird for us. These are all…

Yes. Exactly this. If you're communicating with somebody on a regular basis in person, and they die? You mourn, you send flowers. Hell, you might even go to the funeral home, even if it was in another town. If it's online? You can go weeks or months and be clueless. And then when you do find out, you feel like you were robbed of something. Something important.

I had a real life friend die when I was away at college. Apparently everyone else knew even though they were away at college as well. Came back one week too late and found out I had missed the funeral by a few days.

I think the problem isn't whether or not your friendship is online, but whether or not it's advertised sufficiently to the next of kin and other relevant social networks.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#137

Post by Bartweiss » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 2:41 PM UTC

further_tech wrote: post #72

Startups cannot do a thing. Startups cannot change the fact people abandon their elderly parents. They'll just make it worse. Startups cannot make people less egotistical or make them think about the other. They'll just make it worse. Startups cannot take the existential anxiety and anger from you. They'll just make it worse.

The obvious answer is to call this presumptuous, to say that startups are just things made by groups of people and so they can help if people can.

But on a deeper, intuitive level things rings completely true. It's not something I can prove, it's something that can be proved, but I can't shake the feeling that this carries weight.

This is a world where Facebook use averages 50 minutes per day, and we're going to solve the problem with startups? Really? I tried a popular, profitable app that "gamifies" good habits recently, and almost immediately realized that it was just going to make me take another slice of my day to update an app about the stuff I've already done. Great.

At best, startups can grease the wheels. My 'favorite' apps, the ones that improve my life, are the ones that quietly make easier something I was going to do anyway. They help clear out mental clutter and offer simple reminders, making room for the human things that have to emerge from me rather than a product. So yes, better software and better companies can help, but mostly by getting out of the way; by smoothing over the humanity-eroding problems of other systems and products. This is a wicked problem, one that's entrapping whole societies, and change will have to come from equally large alterations.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#138

Post by sliverstorm » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 2:42 PM UTC

TheLilHipster wrote: post #103

I've been working corporate IT for 4 years now. I'm quite attractive and analytically intelligent, but lack social and emotional intelligence (always been a loner due to childhood circumstances). I feel alienated, I can't relate to others in this rat race. The constant dick waving and competition driven by social media, it's just such a turnoff. Without motivation or passion for games like I used to, life feels empty…

There are people you can relate to. You just haven't found them yet.

Working IT, especially for a small IT department, can be isolating. You can find yourself at a company where there's no-one else like you. But that's not because there's no-one else like you in the world; it's because you work IT at a sales firm.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#139

Post by lgieron » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 2:42 PM UTC

jazzyk wrote: post #134

lgieron wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the borrowing to fuel its growth has caught up, From what I've read, the Japanese public debt is mostly domestic, so it wasn't actually foreign money that was fueling the growth.

Yes, it is domestic (retirement savings) - but it is still debt and will need to be repaid. Due to Japan's demographics, pretty soon.

That's true, but at least it shows that people in Japan have enormous amounts of saved capital (if they could finance all that debt).

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#140

Post by further_tech » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 2:43 PM UTC

BEEdwards wrote: post #105

further_tech wrote: post #72

Startups cannot do a thing. Startups cannot change the fact people abandon their elderly parents. They'll just make it worse. Startups cannot make people less egotistical or make them think about the other. They'll just make it worse. Startups cannot take the existential anxiety and anger from you. They'll just make it worse.

WTF are you on? In no way do I think startups are a panacea for the ailments of society, but you do realize that they are made up of people? People can do all the things that you list and more.

Maybe people can FUNDAMENTALLY change that with multiple collective actions, throughout hundreds, perhaps thousands, of years.

Overfunded startups cannot change that.

Overfunded startups can only provide another pill to ignore the problem (making it even worse).