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Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

nautil.us

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Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#121

Post by CelestialTeapot »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #85
huxley wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll find that in some communities, the Universalist Unitarians or liberal/universalist/nontheist Quaker meetings might fit the need. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers I've known several atheists/agnostics that go to both locally and the few times I've gone to either the meetings tend to be quite low in dogma. Not my thing, but if you crave that sort of commu…

I looked into the local Unitarian Universalists, and they are very New Age types. I like their social justice angle but wouldn't be able to sit through their sermons/discussions without making faces.

If you're not interested in the woo, you could always try the Secular Humanist Society or other similar rationalist local groups that don't preach religiosity.

https://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php/locations/

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#122

Post by further_tech »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #111
further_tech wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At its core, Christians are defined by fraternity, equality, goodness, etc. Maybe some atheists also have these, but there's not a guarantee all act this way. IMO, before founding an "atheist church", I'd at least establish "secular values" and find a community around it. EDIT: I was called a "delusional idiot" for claiming Christians are defined by fraternity, equality, goodness. I'm referring to the SYSTEM OF VALUE…

> I'm referring to the SYSTEM OF VALUES. I'm well aware of "hypocritical Christians", it has nothing to do with them. No true Scotsman!

No. Please read more intelligently.

I didn't use it to refer to "true Christians", but as an ontological description of Christianity.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#123

Post by Bartweiss »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #84
mousa wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in the south and even here a ton of the churches are ok with LGBTQ and don't harp on guilt or how we all need to be saved. Unitarians, Episcopalean, Presbyterian (USA), Quakers, etc. It's still hard to sit through a service where you don't believe anything.

Unitarian, you just have to be searching.

I'm honestly not searching, though, so even the Unitarians feel awkward. At least as I understand it, Unitarianism is still at least deistic. The most I could offer would be moral introspection and some meditation work, none of it in real connection to the supernatural. I'm not opposed to religion on principle, but I'm certainly not trying to find something to place my faith in.

If anything, the best I can see aiming for is some equivalent to cultural Judaism, where even non-believing Jews are invited to attend major ceremonies.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#124

Post by 794CD01 »

kerkeslager wrote: post #70
brightball wrote: post #35

A big part of this that's unpopular to discuss in current culture is people actively avoiding going to a church. Whether you actually donate and believe everything that is said isn't really a factor in whether or not you can show up every week, meet other people in your community, participate in events, be there for each other at during the hard times in life, have fun activities for your kids where you can meet othe…

I'd love to see a public discussion on this. Intuitively, I think you could be right that church participation brings about happiness and reduces alienation, but it's hard to discuss in a complete void of data. I admit I didn't look very hard, but a quick search only yielded a Pew Research study which showed that weekly church attendance was correlated with happiness, but being in good health had a much stronger corr…

Church attendance is available to everyone. For thousands of years, the answer to your dilemma has been obvious. If you are excluded from an existing church, just make a new one. When black people could not attend white churches, do you think they just gave up and decided to be secular?

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#125

Post by Bartweiss »

irremediable wrote: post #75
tristor wrote: post #15

Another part of this I think that people don't really talk about is increased social isolation as a direct cause of Internet addiction and the rise of social media and online gaming. There is a term for this concept in Japan 'hikikomori', but it's just as true in the US. As someone who recently turned 30, yet has remained single most of my life despite my other successes, I see it very clearly. I grew up along with t…

I'm really unsure of this. I can completely believe it, but I can also believe it's completely incorrect. Maybe it turns out people checking their phone while they're with you is fine -- doesn't hurt social bonding in any way. Some of my shyer friends tell me it's actually helped them thrive in social situations. Whenever they get overwhelmed, they can take shelter with the phone for a bit.

It's funny - dealing with people who are under 25, most of them seem to be developing pretty good phone 'hygiene'. Smartphones come out all the time when I'm around my friends, but rarely in an antisocial way, and people who are being rude (not on a phone at a party, but on a phone with a couple of friends) are directly called out. The settings where I see the most "bad" phone use are between acquaintances, or with older demographics where smartphone penetration isn't high enough to generate these etiquette rules.

As a result, most of the phone use I see is socially beneficial. People can show an interesting video or look up a fact to keep a conversation rolling, and take shelter in their phones to avoid looking awkward when they have no one to talk to.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#126

Post by Bartweiss »

cableshaft wrote: post #104
irremediable wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really unsure of this. I can completely believe it, but I can also believe it's completely incorrect. Maybe it turns out people checking their phone while they're with you is fine -- doesn't hurt social bonding in any way. Some of my shyer friends tell me it's actually helped them thrive in social situations. Whenever they get overwhelmed, they can take shelter with the phone for a bit.

Before a smartphone, it was a TV. People would turn on the TV and ignore each other just as much as they do now with smartphones, it's just smartphones has made it more portable. That being said, as an introvert, I also agree that it helps me in social situations not to always have to be communicate with people.

Having seen people try to talk across laptop screens and across smartphones, there are definitely some settings where the rise of smartphones encourages socialization.

It's definitely a tool for introverts, but I hardly ever see phones get in the way of what would otherwise be a fluid, enjoyable conversation. That claim feels more like techphobia than anything, because avoiding awkward, forced conversation is neither novel nor a clear problem.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#127

Post by Avshalom »

further_tech wrote: post #122
pavel_lishin wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm referring to the SYSTEM OF VALUES. I'm well aware of "hypocritical Christians", it has nothing to do with them. No true Scotsman!

No. Please read more intelligently. I didn't use it to refer to "true Christians", but as an ontological description of Christianity.

I believe you'll find christianity to be largely defined by the Nicene Creed and/or Apostles' Creed, which is to say defined by believing in Christ.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#128

Post by alva »

TheLilHipster wrote: post #103

I've been working corporate IT for 4 years now. I'm quite attractive and analytically intelligent, but lack social and emotional intelligence (always been a loner due to childhood circumstances). I feel alienated, I can't relate to others in this rat race. The constant dick waving and competition driven by social media, it's just such a turnoff. Without motivation or passion for games like I used to, life feels empty…

Firstly, echoing the other response

>If you are considering self-harm or suicide as an option for you, please reach out for advice or help. Many people have been through similar situations and found the advice of others helpful.[1]

Otherwise, I sympathise with your thoughts. One thing that has been helpful for me is realising that throughout time, a small percentage of people have felt this way about their society. It should be considered an expected part of any society, it just happens you are in this group.

I feel like if everything gets a bit too much, I will retreat into the countryside and set up a homestead. Nature does wonders for the soul and connects you to the longer thread of life and human experience, above the noise of day-to-day life and perceived trivialities. Please consider the alternatives, even if they are drastic such as above, before suicide. There will be something, a way of life, that resonates with your soul and makes you feel life worth living again, even if it is at odds with what society and family expect of you. I wish the best for you.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#129

Post by further_tech »

icebraining wrote: post #120
further_tech wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At its core, Christians are defined by fraternity, equality, goodness, etc. Maybe some atheists also have these, but there's not a guarantee all act this way. IMO, before founding an "atheist church", I'd at least establish "secular values" and find a community around it. EDIT: I was called a "delusional idiot" for claiming Christians are defined by fraternity, equality, goodness. I'm referring to the SYSTEM OF VALUE…

The thing is, when adherence to a community is enforced (even if just through social pressure), you'll get a lot of uncommitted people who might even wish they would share the values, but don't. Atheists as a whole might be less likely to share a system of values, but those who sought and joined such an organization of their own volition (and not because their family dragged them to church every Sunday) are extremely…

There is no force to join a religious community. In this case, people have been doing this to deal with the alienation they face.

Also, your second argument is ridiculous.

Say you and me go to a party. We both decided this on our own. That doesn't mean we share A SINGLE value.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#130

Post by tehrei »

794CD01 wrote: post #124
kerkeslager wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to see a public discussion on this. Intuitively, I think you could be right that church participation brings about happiness and reduces alienation, but it's hard to discuss in a complete void of data. I admit I didn't look very hard, but a quick search only yielded a Pew Research study which showed that weekly church attendance was correlated with happiness, but being in good health had a much stronger corr…

Church attendance is available to everyone. For thousands of years, the answer to your dilemma has been obvious. If you are excluded from an existing church, just make a new one. When black people could not attend white churches, do you think they just gave up and decided to be secular?

Parent is talking about a small sub-minority of people. Not large enough to form their own church or provide a diverse society to network in.
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