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Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

nautil.us

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Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#81

Post by mousa »

zellyn wrote: post #55
brightball wrote: post #35

A big part of this that's unpopular to discuss in current culture is people actively avoiding going to a church. Whether you actually donate and believe everything that is said isn't really a factor in whether or not you can show up every week, meet other people in your community, participate in events, be there for each other at during the hard times in life, have fun activities for your kids where you can meet othe…

It's so difficult to find a church that (a) values community, and (b) hasn't made some kind of big, public decision against LGBTQ people. And that doesn't preach guilt and condemnation in a thousand overt or subtle ways…

I live in the south and even here a ton of the churches are ok with LGBTQ and don't harp on guilt or how we all need to be saved. Unitarians, Episcopalean, Presbyterian (USA), Quakers, etc. It's still hard to sit through a service where you don't believe anything.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#82

Post by iofj »

iSnow wrote: post #78
rebeccaskinner wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in a lot of places churches have served as a defactor "third place" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place ) for communities. It seems like the decline in church attendance mirrors the decline in a lot of third place spaces. None of my grandparents ever attended church with any regularity, but I know that they were all involved in various social and community activities with the types of clubs that don't…

In a lot of countries - Germany, Britain, France to be sure - the pub is such a third place, especially for men. Their special culture seems to be in decline as well, but not as dramatically as churches.

Well the pub has several problems - social stigma for one, and not being free (and in fact being quite expensive 20/30 euros per evening is not much)

And as you say pub attendance is down by a lot too.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#83

Post by cmrdporcupine »

brightball wrote: post #35

A big part of this that's unpopular to discuss in current culture is people actively avoiding going to a church. Whether you actually donate and believe everything that is said isn't really a factor in whether or not you can show up every week, meet other people in your community, participate in events, be there for each other at during the hard times in life, have fun activities for your kids where you can meet othe…

Maybe churches wouldn't be in decline if churches were actually just social clubs that didn't require their members to all think the same way and believe that the people who don't think that way are doomed to eternal fire?

I grew up with a very tight church community. I simultaneously miss it and have claustrophobic nausea every time I think about it.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#84

Post by JoeAltmaier »

mousa wrote: post #81
zellyn wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's so difficult to find a church that (a) values community, and (b) hasn't made some kind of big, public decision against LGBTQ people. And that doesn't preach guilt and condemnation in a thousand overt or subtle ways…

I live in the south and even here a ton of the churches are ok with LGBTQ and don't harp on guilt or how we all need to be saved. Unitarians, Episcopalean, Presbyterian (USA), Quakers, etc. It's still hard to sit through a service where you don't believe anything.

Unitarian, you just have to be searching.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#85

Post by cmrdporcupine »

huxley wrote: post #76
Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Churches are definitely a great community resource, but I imagine that many people (myself included) don't want to be preached something we don't believe in every week even if it means losing out on those community benefits. I wonder if something else could be established, or even if such a thing as "athiest/agnostic churches" could be organized.

You'll find that in some communities, the Universalist Unitarians or liberal/universalist/nontheist Quaker meetings might fit the need. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers I've known several atheists/agnostics that go to both locally and the few times I've gone to either the meetings tend to be quite low in dogma. Not my thing, but if you crave that sort of commu…

I looked into the local Unitarian Universalists, and they are very New Age types. I like their social justice angle but wouldn't be able to sit through their sermons/discussions without making faces.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#86

Post by cmrdporcupine »

brightball wrote: post #53
twoquestions wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with church is that it demands submission in exchange for community. Not only believe this way, but dress this way, eat this way, vote this way, and if you're in any way different you're as cut off as you would be if you stayed home, and if you're having hard times you must have done something to deserve it. I'm from Ohio so it may be different up here, but that's my experience.

Churches tend to be all shapes and sizes. The traditional ones are usually closer to what you're describing but there are many that are more low key to avoid exactly what you are describing.

And still by definition require you to believe in their idol(s).

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#87

Post by further_tech »

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #74
further_tech wrote: post #65

Your argument is dominated by pragmatism, which often obfuscates what religion is all about. Great communities are a consequence of the chosen lifestyle and morality of religious people. You could gather just as many atheists and the response wouldn't be the same. EDIT: I'm not saying an atheist community would be WORSE than Christianity. I'm saying it would be DIFFERENT from the Christian one.

>Great communities are a consequence of the chosen lifestyle and morality of religious people You don't give athiests and agnostics enough credit. Religion is not required for morals and community values.

At its core, Christians are defined by fraternity, equality, goodness, etc.

Maybe some atheists also have these, but there's not a guarantee all act this way.

IMO, before founding an "atheist church", I'd at least establish "secular values" and find a community around it.

EDIT: I was called a "delusional idiot" for claiming Christians are defined by fraternity, equality, goodness.

I'm referring to the SYSTEM OF VALUES. Something must be aspired for and desired in social interactions. I'm well aware of "hypocritical Christians", it has nothing to do with them.

If you cannot understand that, I'm not a "delusional idiot"; you are just ignorant.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#88

Post by pumblechook »

brightball wrote: post #35

A big part of this that's unpopular to discuss in current culture is people actively avoiding going to a church. Whether you actually donate and believe everything that is said isn't really a factor in whether or not you can show up every week, meet other people in your community, participate in events, be there for each other at during the hard times in life, have fun activities for your kids where you can meet othe…

As someone who's lived in the southeast US my entire life, this is spot on. The Bible Belt gets a lot of flack, most of it deserved, but it is hard to overstate the importance of the church community here. I suspect this, not the religious part, is why churches have continued to thrive here.

The problem for me (as well as many others I know), is that the tradeoff isn't worth it. There is an entire generation of people who are receptive to religion and the church community, but who are completely at odds with the traditional interpretations of religion that preach intolerance and other backward moral positions. The so-called 'contemporary' churches that have been sprouting like weeds have addressed this somewhat, but scant few are actually progressive thinkers, rather than just traditional churches that play religious rock music. I would love to be a part of a church community, but not if it means I'm constantly inundated with a message that runs counter to everything I believe in.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#89

Post by ianai »

logicchains wrote: post #36
simonbarker87 wrote: post #5

Not the main focus of the article but I've been wondering lately why Japan is considered to have done poorly over the last 30 years economically when a lot of the big multi national brands that are very popular all over the world during that period are Japanese. I'm not an economist (or Japanese) but from the outside when you can list Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Suburu, Shimano, Nintendo, Hitachi, Yamaha, Sega and Mu…

Because for some reason many commentators find it perfectly reasonable to use absolute GDP growth as a metric for comparing Japan to America, ignoring the fact that America's population is growing at around 3% while Japan's population growth is around 0% or negative (which means all things being equal one'd expect America's GDP growth to be around 3% higher). In terms of GDP growth per capita, which is the metric tha…

Really good point. Usually metrics are compared "per capita" in macroeconomics.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#90

Post by Jtsummers »

zellyn wrote: post #61
brightball wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Episcopal

We lasted about five minutes in the Episcopal church near us. Our two-and-a-half year old was happily talking about the stained glass windows (months later, he still talks about them), when someone came up to "helpfully" tell us where the nursery was. "People are trying to be prayerful." She was slightly confused when we headed towards the exit rather than the nursery. I think we're going to give it another try - we'…

There seems to be someone "helpful" like that in every church. Unless your kid is truly disruptive (running around, damaging things), the best thing to do is ignore the "helper" and try to keep your kid focused on something that'll quiet them down, or keep them seated/near you. But kids talk, you can't stop that, and oftentimes don't want to.
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