Moving Forward on Basic Income • Hacker News Board

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#241

Post by billmalarky » Tue, May 31, 2016, 5:54 PM UTC

colinplamondon wrote: post #67

xienze wrote: post #60

So, a question for the BI fans: I've seen it said repeatedly that BI will save us money (or at least, not be so outrageously expensive) in part because we can eliminate existing welfare programs. "Just cut a single check, no more overhead from several agencies", they say. But riddle me this: what do you do when someone on BI has a financial emergency or, as will happen with some regularity, just flat-out blows all th…

Personally, I'd hope the system would absolutely tell them "tough shit". There's got to be a line where the safety net gives out, because someone is too expensive to help. That's where family and charity hopefully take over. At the same time, I think your instinct is right, and it's something I've never heard mentioned before. It's almost inevitably that there'll then be the "food security" fund, and the "housing gua…

>It's almost inevitably that there'll then be the "food security" fund, and the "housing guarantee" fund

Seems like basic income allows for this issue to be resolved by private organizations easier since cash is much more liquid than welfare/other government benefits.

So basically what I'm getting at, is if you can't manage your own life, there will be a corporation that provides shelter, food, and basic necessities for you in exchange for 100% of your BI (cue comparisons with the for-profit prison industry).

Those that are unfit for even this model (their special needs require more service than their BI can possibly cover) would be a small minority (assuming BI could cover basic but adequate care for the majority of the elderly) and I suspect they would need to be institutionalized if there were no family or charity organizations that could support them.

Well that's my off-the-cuff zero-research opinion anyways.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#242

Post by namenotrequired » Tue, May 31, 2016, 5:54 PM UTC

haaen wrote: post #94

BI is immoral: why should anyone who can work get money for doing nothing?

Lack of BI is immoral: why should anyone have to work harder than they need to?

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#243

Post by breischl » Tue, May 31, 2016, 5:55 PM UTC

goda90 wrote: post #204

eanzenberg wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Tough shit" sucks when parents blow their handout on lottery tickets and drugs, leaving their children in perpetual poverty.

I've brought up this idea before. Have part of the UBI of children go into a fund that they can then access at 18 to use for schooling or whatever they please. With CPS helping with neglect cases while they are young, the child then isn't stuck in perpetual poverty, because at age 18 they will have savings and full UBI in hand to make their own life. The money not in the fund either is used responsibly for child rear…

It's a laudable goal, but giving a bunch of (mostly) naive, uneducated kids a lump sum of cash is a recipe for disaster. There would instantly be an industry focused on parting them from that money, one that would be extremely profitable and mostly not related to education.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#244

Post by Diederich » Tue, May 31, 2016, 5:55 PM UTC

Strilanc wrote: post #167

xienze wrote: post #60

So, a question for the BI fans: I've seen it said repeatedly that BI will save us money (or at least, not be so outrageously expensive) in part because we can eliminate existing welfare programs. "Just cut a single check, no more overhead from several agencies", they say. But riddle me this: what do you do when someone on BI has a financial emergency or, as will happen with some regularity, just flat-out blows all th…

Delivering the money in small chunks might help. Instead of 70$ every week, make it 5$ twice a day. So no matter how broke you were yesterday, you'll have enough money to eat in a few hours. Another "make it easy to get food even if you really screwed up" option might be to give grocery stores 'first dibs' on the money. Basically, let people spend the money a couple days in advance if they do it at a grocery store. A…

I've not heard of or thought of this approach. It's pretty clever. Still possible to abuse, but it seems at least somewhat less likely.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#245

Post by namenotrequired » Tue, May 31, 2016, 5:56 PM UTC

psadri wrote: post #19

Would a basic income simply cause a rise in the cost of living (housing, food, etc...) and therefore nullify its intended effect?

Possibly. They're going to find out.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#246

Post by ksenzee » Tue, May 31, 2016, 5:56 PM UTC

DawkinsGawd wrote: post #180

gshulegaard wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really isn't a good riddle. First, Unconditional Cash Transfers (UCT) work better than most people expect ( http://www.economist.com/news/international/21588385-giving-... ). As noted in the article, UCTs work surprisingly well in scenarios where lack of capital is the primary problem. A UBI (at least as usually is discussed in the US) is a de-scaling UCT. Second, most proponents of a UBI see it as more efficien…

You completely side stepped the question. I find it absolutely amazing how naive BI supporters are. I grew up poor in a ghetto in New York. Studied, went to university, became an engineer and am no longer in that socioeconomic bracket. However it is very apparent that the people in my current bracket (the one's that support BI), have no idea about the issues of the poor. Poor people are mostly poor because of the dec…

> Poor people are mostly poor because of the decisions they make. At least that is my experience.

That's the crux of the question. It might turn out that you were in a pocket of the poorest decision makers around, and that most people will do a lot better than they did. Or it might turn out that you're exactly right, and all we're doing is funding drug dealers and lotteries. That's why we need studies like this.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#247

Post by haaen » Tue, May 31, 2016, 5:57 PM UTC

Bjartr wrote: post #134

haaen wrote: post #94

BI is immoral: why should anyone who can work get money for doing nothing?

Serious question: why should everyone work? Followup: why is having some minimum amount of resources to live on immoral as opposed to merely unfair?

First of all, not everyone should work. Be it a child that lives off of his parents' money, a stay at home mom whose bills are paid by her husband, or a young, poor but promising artist who lives in an apperment from his mecenas.

BI is immoral (imho of course) because people get paid for doing nothing. It sends a message to society: laziness pays.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#248

Post by namenotrequired » Tue, May 31, 2016, 5:57 PM UTC

haaen wrote: post #133

The YCR statement says: "We think everyone should have enough money to meet their basic needs—no matter what, especially if there are enough resources to make it possible." Why give free money to people who are too lazy to work?

And, on the other extreme: why make people work when there's already enough for everyone?

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#249

Post by _rpd » Tue, May 31, 2016, 5:58 PM UTC

czzarr wrote: post #181

What I don't understand with BI is this: if you give everyone the same amount of money, won't prices and rents adjust accordingly by exactly that amount, thereby nulling the effect ?

Yes. And then the BI payments will be CPI adjusted, engineering an inflationary spiral, or price controls will be introduced, engineering chronic commodity shortages.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#250

Post by gist » Tue, May 31, 2016, 5:58 PM UTC

davemel37 wrote: post #228

If you are really serious about Basic Income, I strongly encourage you to look at the Kollel system within the ultra-orthodox/yeshiva communities (i.e. Lakewood, NJ) While their model is conditional, the framework for providing a stipend to cover basic necessities so the kollel members are free to study, is very similar. You will see a glimpse of what happens. There is amazing achievement, and there is abuse of the s…

However that is a small community geographically so I wonder how that would work on a larger more anonymous basis without the social pressures that certainly in Lakewood.