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Moving Forward on Basic Income

blog.ycombinator.com

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Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#151

Post by Alupis »

sama wrote: post #33
Fede_V wrote: post #5

I think it's great YC is funding some interesting research. I'm a bit curious as to why they didn't partner with some established academics in this area (there's plenty of economists who have done excellent research here) rather than start a new program - but it's YC's money, and they can choose how to spend it. How open do you plan to be about things like datasets/analysis plans and so forth? I think this would be a…

We did consider it, and we are working with some established academics. However, I think it's a good idea to push forward alternative models of doing (and funding) research. Frankly, most of the existing institutions we thought about partnering closely with were somewhat bloated, and it would have made the whole study significantly more expensive and slower.

> push forward alternative models of doing (and funding) research

> thought about partnering closely with were somewhat bloated

> made the whole study significantly more expensive and slower

Not to be obtuse, but these reasons sound an awful lot like the excuses Theranos gave when questioned why they didn't do things more correctly.

I mean, it sounds like ycombinator wants to help propel this idea forward, but you're attempting to minimize your cost and also rush it, instead of doing things right.

> it would have made the whole study significantly more expensive and slower

And so be it. This is a major paradigm shifting idea, and you're not going to be able to take short-cuts and come out with respectable results that hold up to scrutiny.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#152

Post by Fede_V »

sama wrote: post #33
Fede_V wrote: post #5

I think it's great YC is funding some interesting research. I'm a bit curious as to why they didn't partner with some established academics in this area (there's plenty of economists who have done excellent research here) rather than start a new program - but it's YC's money, and they can choose how to spend it. How open do you plan to be about things like datasets/analysis plans and so forth? I think this would be a…

We did consider it, and we are working with some established academics. However, I think it's a good idea to push forward alternative models of doing (and funding) research. Frankly, most of the existing institutions we thought about partnering closely with were somewhat bloated, and it would have made the whole study significantly more expensive and slower.

This is a real problem, and it sucks. By offering money with strings attached (about bureaucracy, overhead, etc) you have an opportunity to shape how things are done though.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#153

Post by softawre »

haaen wrote: post #133

The YCR statement says: "We think everyone should have enough money to meet their basic needs—no matter what, especially if there are enough resources to make it possible." Why give free money to people who are too lazy to work?

Too lazy to work? Or the economy can only support 100k jobs when we have 100 million people? Eventually the latter will be true.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#154

Post by acgourley »

kauffj wrote: post #135
audleman wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Almost all of the _basic_ needs of a human, i.e. those that we received 50,000 years ago, could be provided for $1-$2k a year Can you explain this? Basic needs include shelter, clothing, and food, which together cost much more than $1-$2k.

A tent, a pair or two of clothing, and meals of rice/beans/vegetables can be provided for less than $2k/year. A life comparable to this, but requiring more work, has been and continues to be lived by hundreds of millions.

We are forced us to decide if forward progress alongside our neighbors is a moral right.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#155

Post by Manishearth »

eanzenberg wrote: post #110
colinplamondon wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I'd hope the system would absolutely tell them "tough shit". There's got to be a line where the safety net gives out, because someone is too expensive to help. That's where family and charity hopefully take over. At the same time, I think your instinct is right, and it's something I've never heard mentioned before. It's almost inevitably that there'll then be the "food security" fund, and the "housing gua…

"Tough shit" sucks when parents blow their handout on lottery tickets and drugs, leaving their children in perpetual poverty.

This can happen when the income is earned, too. And there are independent safety nets for it.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#157

Post by dluan »

elizabeth-ycr wrote: post #122
dluan wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's been a lot of research into this, particularly around the concept of savings as the big obstacle towards independence and freedom. The poorest people who struggle to achieve even a basic income (think participants in microcredit) face a difficult task of building enough savings to live past one catastrophic flood, one bad recession, one big purchase/investment (a new car that doesn't always break down vs. cra…

Participants' financial health, including savings and ability to weather economic shocks, is one of the key outcomes we'll be examining.

Good luck! I'll be following closely. I've always envied how in economics it's the practitioners who can push the boundaries the furthest.

Of course, if you ever have any results you'd like to post on Experiment feel free to reach out.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#158

Post by losvedir »

xienze wrote: post #60

So, a question for the BI fans: I've seen it said repeatedly that BI will save us money (or at least, not be so outrageously expensive) in part because we can eliminate existing welfare programs. "Just cut a single check, no more overhead from several agencies", they say. But riddle me this: what do you do when someone on BI has a financial emergency or, as will happen with some regularity, just flat-out blows all th…

Yeah, it's a great question.

One solution I've been thinking about is if we could hand out the basic income in a daily increment. I don't know the actual implementation details, but something like you get a government card that can work at any ATM or something, which has an account that increments every day.

That way, at worst, you end up hungry for a day, which is manageable.

We'd need "basic income compatible" housing, hence my answer[0] to a previous YC question about what they should fund at YC Research. If the housing is cheap enough to accommodate BI, and it accepted payments every day, then you can't really spend yourself out of accommodations. At least, if the feedback loop is close enough such that "I buy this thing and now I can't get back into my apartment tonight" works, then I think that could prevent homelessness in the "poor budgeting" rather than "mental illness" case.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11000558

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#159

Post by notahacker »

PabloOsinaga wrote: post #9

I wonder how to test controlling for reciprocity. I.e., If I receive a basic income as part of a pilot/experiment I will feel tempted to "give back" somehow, while if basic income is a baseline all humans receive, that reciprocity will not be present. How can you design an experiment so that somehow people don't feel they are receiving money in an extraordinary way, but rather that's just part of how the world works.…

I think the short answer is you can't. This study is probably less likely to be susceptible to another major problem with philanthropy experiments, which is recipients reporting what they think the survey designers want to hear because they believe they will be further rewarded as a consequence.

(which I think is present and very difficult to avoid in RCT trials in developing countries; a notable example was people reporting that they were less likely to have recently been subjected to domestic violence after their neighbours had received money.)

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#160

Post by stevesearer »

Will recipients of Basic Income payments be allowed to move to somewhere with a lower cost of living where their payments will go further?

Handcuffing people to a location - especially one with a rising cost of living like Oakland - seems like it would not be in the best interest of participants receiving such payments.

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